‘Can a machine read your mind?’ – the title of a recent (February 2009) article in the Times -- is meant to be sensational but is similar to hundreds of other articles appearing with increasing frequency, and merely repeating a story that has been familiar for the last 50 years. ‘It’s just a matter of time’ is the assumption behind such articles – just a matter of time before the gap between physical brain-stuff and consciousness is bridged. The Times article plays up the social interest angle of its story by describing experiments in which people’s brain activity is taken as proof of their guilt or innocence of crimes, or in which a computer ‘could tell with 78 per cent accuracy’ which of a number of drawings shown to volunteers was the one they were concentrating on ...
There are in fact even more extreme examples than those in the Times article of how neuro-science and social science increasingly overlap. Alan Sanfey, of the Neural Decision Science Laboratory at the University of Arizona, for example, describes a neuro-economic analysis of an Ultimatum Game in which one person is given the power over another to make an offer to split £100. If the other rejects the offer, no one gets anything. So far so familiar -- to other behavioural economics experiments that study the norms of fairness. One neuro-twist to the story, though, is that experimenters can make subjects more or less willing to accept unfair offers by subjecting their brains to Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS), non-invasive and painless stimulation of the brain.
At a recent meeting of a Conservative think-tank in London about the possibility of reducing concepts of moral action entirely to scientific explanations of behaviour, one politician joked about the policy applications of Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation techniques. The world of understanding, cognition and even action can be managed by manipulating atoms rather than arguments ("opium of the people" in reverse -- chemicals inducing meaning, instead of meanings acting chemically). Even where such claims seem strongest and most striking, it is important to ask what exactly they amount to. Can we really move with ease from the world of atoms to the world of meanings? Or is any apparent smoothness due to the conceptual confusion involved in applying neuro-scientific discoveries to meaningful questions -- so that in the transition we inevitably lose essentially human parts of existence? These questions, newly pertinent because of scientific and social developments, have been anticipated in the philosophy of mind of the past 70 years.
In the late 1950s, philosophers like J J C Smart demanded why -- given the advances of science, and its success in establishing the identity of commonsense with scientific concepts -- specific states of consciousness (pain, seeing a yellow after-image) should not in fact ‘turn out to be’ specific brain states. Lightning has ‘turned out to be’ an electrical discharge, and heat to be molecular motion. In each case, said Smart, the scientific term obviously doesn’t mean the same as the commonsense term, but it does refer to the same phenomenon. Science tells us what lightning and heat actually are. Similarly, pain doesn’t mean brain state 7,008, and the person talking about her pain may well not know that what she is talking about is brain state 7,008 (any more than, prior to Alexander von Humboldt in the 19th century, people knew they were talking about H2O when they talked about water), but that is what she is ultimately talking about.
Biologists, neuroscientists, and scientised people in general, are often perplexed, even exasperated, that there should be any objection to some version of this Smart-type identification of brain states with mental states. They pat philsophers’ hands and tell them not to bother their clever little heads about the problem since it is a scientific one, and nothing to do with philosophy. ‘Just a matter of time’ again. But it surely is unavoidably a philosophical problem, since we need to know what exactly we’re dealing with. What would count as knowing that a brain state/mental state identity had been established? How could it be proved that brain state 7,008, for instance, is precisely the pain I’m having now? Well, is the usual answer, it’s just a matter of sophisticated technology being developed to correlate a specific site in the brain and movement of neurones etc with the occurrence of the pain, showing that each is happening at the same time, in the same place. Yes, but how can more than correlation be established? And correlation of time is hard enough, what could correlation of place come to?
Smart seemed to be conceding the correlation point when he admitted that what he postulated about brain state/mental state synchronisation could equally amount to epiphenomenalism as to identity (i.e., to the view that, with any neural event, there is also a mental, causally inactive, spin-off). Occam’s razor was his clinching argument for opting for identity – get rid of clutter and believe as simple and economic a theory as possible.
Which would be fine if, as some philosophers like Thomas Nagel have pointed out, your razor didn’t actually cut out the essential thing. How do we get rid of the sense that there always seems to be something left over from the straightforward conflation of brain state activity into mental state occurrence? In The Blue Book, Wittgenstein imagines a scenario in which scientists open someone’s head and observe his functioning brain, while he, by means of mirrors, observes it at the same time, all observers equally able to watch neurones firing, synapses opening, etc. In principle, why not? But, as Wittgenstein says, the brain-owner, unlike the scientists clustering round him, is observing, or experiencing, two things rather than one. He can observe that when he feels, or thinks about, certain things, certain activities occur in his brain at the same time. He experiences feeling or thinking in certain ways, and also he experiences observing his brain working in certain ways. The scientists only experience observing the brain working. What one could add to this is that if, at some time in the future, the subject whose brain has been observed were to see a video of what had happened during the brain-inspection, he (unless his memory were perfect or the experiment very brief) would be in the same position as the observing scientists were at the time – he would have to deduce what he had been thinking about or feeling then from what he now observes of his brain in the video.
Given the brain’s material object status, it wouldn’t, and, for identity theorists, shouldn’t, matter whose brain is being observed, and by whom, owner or non-owner, when it comes to ‘recognising’ mental states as brain states, and vice versa. But of course, it does matter – it makes all the difference. Also, as it should seem too juvenile to add, suppose the brain-owner were an expert on the history of the Restoration, and had been thinking about his new research during the experiment, the observers at the time would become no whit more knowledgeable about Restoration England. Oh well, might be the riposte, if we knew the entire history of the brain-owner’s history-acquisition, then we could read off from the lighted-up areas of his brain … etc. ‘Read off’ is still ‘deduce’, and it would require a lot of separate learning on the part of the brain-observer for her to be able to catch up with the brain-owner’s knowledge.
The observer (of the brain or brain-scan) has to infer a brain/mental state correlation, relying on the brain-owner’s report, and/or on induction – observation of similar brains in similar contexts, with a mass of correlations and brain-owners’ reports being accumulated and compared. In the examples in the Times article mentioned above, the experimenter needed to infer from movements (or lack of movements) in parts of the brain to the guilt or innocence of the brain-owner, or to rely on the experimental subject’s confirmation as to whether the drawing she seemed to be concentrating on actually was the drawing she was concentrating on. Reliance on both inference and induction surely makes ‘mind-reading’ by brain-scan open to the same sort of problems as the notoriously suspect lie-detector tests that already exist – that the experimenter’s deduction can be mistaken due to ways in which the experimental subject’s brain is (or does things) different to what is standard or expected. Anyway, the initial expectation of identity theorists that the regular coincedence of a particular type of brain state with a particular type of physical state could eventually be established (not just regular in one individual brain but across individuals’ brains in general) has largely been abandoned as impossible to achieve.
Leibniz made the same point as Wittgenstein when asking us to imagine somehow being able to wander about inside someone else’s (or it could be your own) brain. You can observe all sorts of things pulling and pushing, he says, but cannot observe the thoughts. Which is why spatial correlation of a brain state with a mental state sounds even more disorientatingly weird than temporal correlation, horribly like a category mistake. To claim, as Smart does, that sensations and thoughts are just processes in the brain makes sense in one way -- without brain movements consciousness wouldn’t happen; but what the consciousness is of, the content of consciousness (the beach on Formentera in 1983, some of your religious beliefs or disbeliefs, the difficulty of solving problems of consciousness) – is that in the brain exactly? And isn’t your pain felt in your tooth and your pleasure located in your breasts?
Just as you couldn’t pick out the precise area in a brain where a practising Jew’s disbelief in the resurrection of Jesus (or a physicalist’s disbelief in mind-body dualism, or an enamoured man’s feeling of love) is located, or that becomes activated when Jesus’s resurrection (or dualism, or the beloved) is mentioned, nor more could you get the practicing Jew to believe in the resurrection while preserving his other beliefs, or convert the physicalist into a dualist, or get the man to fall out of love, by tampering with or obliterating specific parts of her or his brain activity. A belief is part of a whole theory or system of beliefs, a feeling of love part of life history, memories, beliefs, etc. Given what is called the holism of the mental, a holism both of abstract belief systems, and of concrete, personal life histories, you couldn’t alter either just by tampering piecemeal. (obviously you could by damaging the brain so severely that the person became incapable of coherent thought or speech, actually wiping out wholesale the capacity to remember, believe, feel as others normally do, and the person specifically had done.) Another reason why at best you get correlation or causation, not identity.
It seems more feasible, perhaps, to seek to establish mental state/brain state correlations in the case of visceral, body-related mental states, like pain, than in the case of contentful (‘intentional’) mental states that overarch, and invoke, other parts of a person’s life and belief-systems. Apart from the obvious fact that there is no neat division here but overlap and further diversity, these two sorts of mental state have at least one thing in common – can either ‘a thought [or this particular thought] about the beach in Formentera’, for instance, or ‘pain [or this particular sensation of pain]’, be on a par with lightning, heat or water? How far is consciousness comparable to any physical phenomenon? Smart seems to have an uneasy inkling of their non-comparablity when he makes a point of seeking to ‘forestall irrelevant objections’ by pointing out that he is not talking about ‘the publicly observable physical object, lightning’ but about the sense datum or the brain state (which are, as he is of course arguing, one and the same) that are caused by lightning. Surely he is stressing this very obvious distinction because he has a worrying sense (anticipating Saul Kripke (see especially lecture 3) that there is not an equivalence between the equation: ‘lightning = an electrical discharge’ and the equation: ‘this particular (or this type of) mental state = this particular (or this type of) brain state.
‘Lightning’, ‘water’ and ‘heat’ are commonsense terms for phenomena that are, for scientific purposes, more accurately called ‘electrical discharge’, ‘H2O’ and ‘molecular motion’. The lightning and water equations only seem analogous to a mental state = brain state equation, because the common sense terms ‘lightning’ and ‘water’, unlike their respective scientific terms, somehow contain (and therefore smuggle in) the sense of what lightning and water look like. Therefore, to say that lightning is an electrical discharge, or that water is H2O, adds objective knowledge of what the phenomenon really is (lightning isn’t after all something hurled by angry gods). But how can ‘irritation at his assumption that this problem can be so easily solved’ or ‘remembering how we sat under the honeysuckle near Orford’ be more illuminatingly called ‘brain state 50,987 with x neurons doing y [and however complicated and precise you want to make this description]’? What exactly would be added to your feeling or memory by discovering (if you could) that it was a movement of atoms?
Is a conscious state really equivalent to lightning, heat or water? For, as Kripke pointed out, now, once it has been discovered that water is H2O, lightning is an electrical discharge, heat is molecular motion, we all know it to be the case that whenever you get water you get H2O etc. and anyone who doesn’t is ill-informed. Only ignorance prevents the perceiver of water, lightning or heat from knowing these respective identity statements to be true. Different meanings, same reference. But that surely doesn’t apply in the case of sensations, thoughts, memories, etc.
Water seems a certain way to us, and science, in its attempt to produce what Nagel calls ‘a view from nowhere’, ignores and extracts from the seeming, in order to get at what water really is, irrespective of the viewer's race, sex, age, or other subjective idiosyncracies, irrespective in fact of any viewer whatever. But we can't subtract the viewer when dealing with consciousness. Consciousness is unavoidably subjective and about how things seem, what things seem like to the conscious person. Of course another conscious person may deduce, or be informed about and thereby make deductions about the truth and quiddity of, another conscious person’s thoughts or feelings. And of course in some way consciousness may be caused by, or correlated with, the brain's microscopic properties. But (as Nagel hardly needed to remind us) what it feels like to be conscious of something, or to be in a particular state of pain or serenity, surely goes beyond those brain properties. A scientific description of what happens in the brain when someone has a certain thought or experience seems inevitably to leave out what the thought is about or the experience is like. Once again, there’s something left over, something which, if the person were observing their own brain states, they would be having in addition to seeing neurons fire and synapses wiggling.
What more would the person conscious of pain, of the memory of Formentera in 1983, of believing in physicalism, know about the pain, the memory or the belief, either as experienced or as described, if knowing that any of these ‘is’ brain state 3,9087? In what sense ‘is’ any of them a specific brain state or set of brain states?
As Kripke said, when God (obviously metaphoric here) created the world, all he needed to do to create heat was to create molecular motion (which is what heat is) but he needed to do something extra in order to create a sensation of heat. Ditto with creating water, it was just a matter of creating H2O, but the sight, sound, taste, feel, smell(?) of water were an additional labour, actually requiring the creation of sentient organisms. (In a way, heat is in a slightly different category from lightning and water. The latter two phenomena (especially water) can be more easily imagined as unperceived entities than heat can. With heat, the objective phenomenon is much more inextricably interwoven with the subjective effect of it, which is why Kripke’s use of heat as an example can be misleading.)
The most irritating (to us lay people) aspect of philosophical and scientific attempts to reduce the mental to the neural, and to squash down human beings into being on all fours with other physical things, is that their proponents nearly always say that actually they are just putting the truth about consciousness more clearly and taking nothing away from our experience. Like politicians deviously withdrawing privileges, they expect us to be quite happy about this. Some developments of identity theory, however, are more upfront. They force consciousness into equivalence with lightning and water by impugning the ignorance of us ordinary people. The way we talk about sensations, memories and beliefs is, say eliminative materialists, hopelessly antiquated, a form of ‘folk psychology’ as hidebound and superstition-laden as talk about witches, or about epileptics being possessed by devils. ‘Folk psychology’ is a theory about how humans function, they say, that is pathetically inadequate in both describing and predicting. In time, a more scientifically sophisticated vocabulary will replace it.
Really? So we were wrong all the time about our memories and our passions? What sort of a world, I wonder, do these eliminative materialists envisage with their revised vocabulary about mental (or rather neural states). What exactly would be doing? What would be the point of training ourselves, or being trained, to report on our brain states?
The eliminative materialists may base their argument on the perspicuous fact that some mental terms do trail theories behind them, and can therefore be replaced, extrapolating from this the notion that such terms can be wholesale eliminated. ‘Depression’, ‘grief’, ‘melancholia’, ‘black bile’, ‘accidie’ are, it is true, not synonymous, nor do they, probably, refer to precisely the same phenomena; but does that mean that there are no such dark phenomena? ‘Dark’ is not just purple passagey – these, like many mental states, arent exactly describable except by pictorial and other metaphors. But I wonder how eliminative materialists would replace Macbeth’s description, or expression, of depression, melancholy, black bile or whatever in the ‘Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow’ speech, or George Eliot's apercu on the insincerity of spontaneous feeling.
Metaphor bridges the gap between secluded mental states by invoking physical things that are open to all (whatever the likelihood of their being differently experienced). If indeed ‘folk psychology’ could be eradicated, along with all the metaphor and poetry that has grown up around it, then surely, with the irrepressibility of weeds, metaphor and poetry would spring up again around brain state terminology. But how would we be induced to abandon ‘folk psychology’ in the first place. Eliminativism seems to share the worst aspect of Cartesian dualism – its hopeless seclusion. Our brain states, although in principle open to anyone’s inspection, are in practice hidden. Why would we go the trouble of talking about our inner states, sensibly say objectors to dualism, unless in the context of sharable, palpable experiences? Even more ridiculous, by the same token, is the idea that we could be taught about, and discuss, brain states. Why would we ever dream of doing so?
Worse than this, would be the loss to morality and self-creation. Suppose, in a juxtaposition of eliminativism and Freudianism, a woman’s amygdala lighted up in the anger zone even as she was professing not to be angry. She is duly given the expert’s better-informed diagnosis of her state of mind. But is that an advantage, particularly if she accepts the diagnosis and acts on it. Denial of anger may sometimes be dishonesty or self-deception, but may also, even while being both, be part of the suppression of anger that is so imperative in civilised life. What about if a man objecting to a situation of social injustice were subjected to Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation to obliterate his present feeling of dissatisfaction and induce a feeling of pleasure? Surely what actually matters to him is the cognitive aspect of the dissatisfaction – the reason he was feeling it.
The new neuro-social-sciences are the latest of many attempts to naturalise the human---to make every aspect of our lives and selves comprehensible merely as subjects of scientific explanation. The social consequences of the naturalistic program make it especially important to understand its philosophical limits. Not only do we become experimental subjects, but we very easily become subjected -- to the particular types of control that scientific understanding invites, especially the "medical model" of the expert which offers the 'patient' diagnosis, prophylaxis, prognosis and cure. This may produce wonderful results in the right context, but should be tightly confined within the world of atoms; in the world of meanings, its essentially metaphorical status needs to be always understood. A naturalised, rather than thoughtful and deliberative politics, is not only creepy, it is incoherent. Ironically, it substitutes a medical metaphor for meaningful argument.
Hard-line identity theorists, and eliminativists above all, don’t appreciate how much they would change things if indeed we could come to believe and implement their theories. Our world would increasingly be leeched of meaning, morality, dignity and freedom, and if we rejected folk psychology in favour of scientific terminology about brain states, not only would we know less, not more, about ourselves; we would also have less to know about, because we would be less.
(All pictures have been taken from Alan Sanfey's very interesting presentation of Ultimatum Game results, here)



Comments
Excellent to see someone on the side of humanity and arguing for the mind so lucidly. I can't see how these identity theorists can be so uintuitive and not reflect on their own experiences with the mind/brain. Their ideas of lightning being a brain state etc assumes that the brain is merely an empty photographic plate merely recording images without reflection, associations etc
I'd like to develop Lucas Wright's point by bringing in De Quincey in support of the separation of the mind/ brain in this vividly written article by Jane o' Grady . De Quincey remarks that impressions do not come to us singly, be it a lightning bolt or sunshine: they are bound up in compound experiences which he calls 'involutes' -- patterns that spiral inwards like the stairwells in Piranesi's dungeons.
De Quincey always experienced sunshine with sadness because he associated it with the death of his sister in midsummer: how would neuro-scientists ever be privy to this thought? Again the lights flashing on in the brain which scientists can examine are like watching the twinkling lights of an ocean liner on the horizon, we know it's a ship but we'd have to be on board to know what the band was playing or what the hell is going on in Room 23.
So, in the world of this metaphor, it's somehow impossible to board a boat?
Good stuff. My main concern is that like a lot of stuff these days of this genre, it all hinges on the assumption that we all experience and feel the same thing.
For example: I see the colour 'yellow', you also see yellow and call it 'yellow' but in fact it is what I see as 'orange'.
How does anyone ever know what I see as 'yellow' is in fact your 'orange'? We both call it yellow and experience it as yellow, but in fact we are poles apart.
We could say the same for taste, pain or anything else. I don't like eating fish, because the taste is very similar to what I smell from a toilet, but it is patently obvious fish eaters don't expereince this! How many would eat from a toilet?
How does another person really know that the other is experiencing the very same thing?
The ramifications of this are enormous if you think about it....
Sorry, but I come from the old generation of neuroscience that uncovered the modualr structure of cortex but know full well that you can't sunstitute with PET metabolic scan or magnetic stimulation for neural processing processes. A good look at the papers in context of peer critique in reviews will better elucidate the flaws in this Brave New World publicity stunt. It was the same with genetic markers. We thought we could sort out disease prospect by polymorphic genes. But in genetics and neuroscience-- in the molecular level at which we delve thanks to our technologies of today-- statistical "spot" analysis of energy metabolism using statistics just won't cut it....not yet. To paraphrase an old saying: figures don't lie but grant-hungry neuroscientists do figure for publicity sake. That's as old as the NIH granting system!
I find this very intersting, but I dont get how you can
change someones thoughts. Could someone kindly
explain how this works?
I'm reminded of the lack of success of "seeing" computers. The starting point of Artifical Intelligence is the "atom" and the goal is meaning.
In the Sci Fi context, it is downloading mind into the computer. There seems little appreciation of the implication of this to ultimate meaning of life.
No! A machine cannot change your mind.The reason why this is not possible is that there is unbridgeable gap between the two entities. A machine is material whereas the mind is immaterial. They cannot interract with each other.
It is this gap that causes so much trouble in understanding the relationship between the BRAIN and the MIND.The Times article referred to in the article above uses the terms "mind" and "brain" interchangeably. This is incorrect and is responsible for the erroneous notion that a machine can change your mind. The fact that a machine can change the brain makes sense simply because both are constituted of matter; but it is unjustifiable to claim that a machine can change the mind. We must "mind the gap!" if we are to answer correctly the question posed by the title of this article.
Mr Kachere,
I am astonished at the stupidity of this Mr kachere, i dont know why he thinks that he is qualify to comment here. I have been a professor neuroscience at the university of malawi, for 25 years, and I consider this kind of statement to be an insult to myself personally and to all other researches in the field of neuroscience.
"A machine is material whereas the mind is immaterial. " ( Kachere M, 2009)
this is the statement of blindingly obvious, and "They cannot interract with each other." ( Kachere M, 2009). I find this rather surpirising since my mind at this very moment is interacting with the computer, which is undeniably a machine, in order to demolish his meaningless argument. Even some of the experimental rhesus monkeys that we keep at the university are capable of more incisive reasoning than this.
The author's argument is based in a gross misunderstanding of how mental states are identified with brain states. Her ontology of belief -- 'where in the brain resides our reaction to the Resurrection?' -- is, strictly speaking, a strawman, suggesting at least an insufficient appreciation of the understandably difficult-to-appreciate complexities of neural representation... and, in the worst case scenario, a know-nothingism motivated by supernatural fuzzy thinking. One is not wrong in asserting that memories and passions seem more richly textured than reductionist accounts seem to allow. But the fault lies not in physicalism of reductionism, rather in the widespread misunderstanding of what neuroscientists are actually stating in the tightly-circumscribed limits of their published work. As the author shows, we often fear what we don't understand, and loathe it.
To put a spin on Hitchens' riposte to religious claims of moral superiority: can one behavior be identified which cannot plausibly be accommodated by a reductionist theory? The answer often given is yes (with emphasis)... but this answer is often reflexive, unreflective, and hasty. It is right to demand that neuroscience account for the experience we perceive; it is important that we attend to the conversation sufficiently, in order to hear when it does just that or, often the case, when it asks us to wait, as much has yet to be explored.
Indeed. And, I think the question, "Where, OUTSIDE OF the mind, resides our reaction to the resurrection?" is the more pertinent one, even though absurd. Where, other than the brain, can a "reaction" reside...?
Criticising neuroscience based on its current achievements is like criticising the physics of Aristotle; it's easy, it's cheap and it means precisely nothing. It's perfectly clear to everyone working in the field that an effective model of human consciousness will involve massive and incredibly complicated computer models which work in profound and unpredictable ways to produce surprising results -- just like the human mind itself. And it's a long way off.
But as to the question of whether materialism will ever capture human experience -- what else have you got? Freudianism? Marxism? Religion? Since none of the other contenders look even remotely plausible, I'm happy to declare materialism the winner by default. If and when a credible alternative comes along, then we can reconsider.
"Our world would increasingly be leeched of meaning, morality, dignity and freedom, and if we rejected folk psychology in favour of scientific terminology about brain states, not only would we know less, not more, about ourselves; we would also have less to know about, because we would be less."
Ringing bromides such as the above are irrelevant to the scientific mind/brain problem. It simply isn't science's business to preserve the self-esteem of the human race. In other contexts--e.g., an expert in photo-forensics proving that a vision of the Virgin Mary on a tree-trunk is but an optical illustion (and thereby "leeching morality, dignity," etc. from the lives of believers flocking to the site, or a health inspector confirming the presence of e coli in the local meat supply, thereby depriving family barbeques of their communal meaning for a while--we gladly accept science disabusing us of comforting myths.
It all comes down to, as Daniel Dennett says, somebody investigating the nature of consciousness getting frustrated, fatigued or browbeaten by anti-science spiritualists, throwing up their hands and saying, "At this point, a miracle occurs."
I don't think it does, and I, too, find that conclusion somewhat depressing. But it's not neuroscience's job to keep me happy in my ignorant bliss.
Doubter:
You write about the "business" of "science" as not being the preservation of the "self-esteem of the human race," and you also write that it is not "neuroscience's" "job" "to keep [you] happy in [your] ignorant bliss."
The problem is that "science" and "neuroscience" are not actors or independently functioning (let alone willful)entities that have any "business" or "jobs" whatsoever. Science doesn't "do" anything -- scientists do. And it is people at large (not merely scientists) who determine what kind of experiments should or shouldn't be run, according to ethical criteria that are established in common law. We could certainly find out a lot about human biology by torturing people in various ways and testing their responses, just as the Nazis did. But then, by your logic, it wouldn't be the "business" of science to care about where and how the data was obtained.
"Our world would increasingly be leeched of meaning, morality, dignity and freedom, and if we rejected folk psychology in favour of scientific terminology about brain states, not only would we know less, not more, about ourselves; we would also have less to know about, because we would be less."
Ringing bromides such as the above are irrelevant to the scientific mind/brain problem. It simply isn't science's business to preserve the self-esteem of the human race. In other contexts--e.g., an expert in photo-forensics proving that a vision of the Virgin Mary on a tree-trunk is but an optical illustion (and thereby "leeching morality, dignity," etc. from the lives of believers flocking to the site, or a health inspector confirming the presence of e coli in the local meat supply, thereby depriving family barbeques of their communal meaning for a while--we gladly accept science disabusing us of comforting myths.
It all comes down to, as Daniel Dennett says, somebody investigating the nature of consciousness getting frustrated, fatigued or browbeaten by anti-science spiritualists, throwing up their hands and saying, "At this point, a miracle occurs."
I don't think it does, and I, too, find that conclusion somewhat depressing. But it's not neuroscience's job to keep me happy in my ignorant bliss.
Not so fast. Few would claim that "the mind is only the brain" but a respectable case can be made for the statement that "the mind is a function of the brain" and a lot can be learned about the mind (mental functions, such as memory, perception, feelings, etc.) by considering the architecture of the brain (neurons, axons, synapses, glial cells,etc.) and its function, which is essentially, electrical or rather ionic. The implications of reductionism are not justified against the great majority of findings in neuroscience.
The very best treatise in modern times is by the late philosopher Mortimer Adler who knew how to analyse the problem and come to a firm conclusion based on the empirical evidence not prejudice. The books to read are "The Difference of Man and the Difference It Makes" and "Intellect: Mind Over Matter."
Adler showed that the products of conceptual thought - immaterial classifications, generalities et al. - are radically different in kind from those of the brain, which are sensory and singular. Accordingly conceptual thought cannot be owed entirely to the physical brain but an immaterial component. While the physical brain is essential to thought it is not entirely respnsible for it. As Adler put it, "We cannot think with our brain, but we cannot thik without it."
I trust you noticed how the great defenders of neuroscience in the comments above didn't so much as attempt to engage Wittgenstein's philosophical objection.
If the philosophical objections are as easily dismissed as the self-described experts claim, then why not score the coup de grace by means of a pithy and decisive refutation? Not some hocus pocus about how science is a sacred profession, &c. Yes, we know. But I'm asking you, using language as clear and compelling as Wittgenstein, to simply demonstrate that he's wrong.
Yes, I find Wittgenstein's argument very compelling, as do many other intelligent people. If it's clearly wrong, surely someone as smart as a scientist ought to be able to skewer it!
Let's face it, Professor Wittgenstein accuses you of trying to square the circle. And all you can say in reply is "yes, but our motivations are exceedingly good!"
Of course they are.
My congratulations to the author on a well written piece.
Dare one say the assetion "the mind is not the brain" depends on what are one's definitions of "mind", "mental states", and "is not"?
Where discernable O'Grady's definitions are useless. Especially the "is not". She is the confused one, not neuroscientists.
We know, with a degree of certainty, of no mind without a brain. Equally we know impairing the brain alters if it does not impair whatever mind is manifest or emergent. Nothing is gained by O'Grady's playing with verbal phlogistens.
Gregory Bateson laid down a challenge to AI that, mutatis mutandis, gives the only support it deserves to the the desire to place mind "above" brain: he would believe in AI when he asked a computer a question and it began its answer with ". . . that reminds me of a story." Bateson knew it would never happen. A machine would never have the equal of a brain much less a "real" one.
Spinning further mysterious wonderments "above" the brain is not deep. It is sophomoric self indulgence.
1) The mind is not the bring but a very strong case exists that the mind is an emergent property of the biological system of either the brain or more generally the body.
2) neuro-social-science - does not 'Confuse the two' - in fact, there is little evidence that 'two' things exist
3) lots of other serious issues with this work - it is clear that Ms. O'Grady, while an accomplished 'science' writer neither is a neuroscientist nor truly understands neuroscience or cognitive science.
What a silly article. It weaves around but cannot avoid this simple truth: There is nothing about the "mind" that is not directely caused by the brain.
There is no such thing as the "immaterial." Everything is either matter or patterns derived from matter. There is nothing else.
Yes, a sufficiently advanced machine could make you believe, remember, or experience anything, solely through manipulation of your brain.
I have a problem saying that water is "really" H2O. On one plane of discourse, it is H20. On another, it's what I need in order to take a shower or (absent broth) cook rice. I'm as materialist as the next guy, but I would object to any scientist using terms like "at bottom" or "essentially" or "fundamentally" when describing water as H20. Because isn't that what it is--a description? And one of many?
Similarly, I'm not sure how many identity theorists or neuroscientists are saying that thoughts and feelings are "really" (let alone "really just") brain states and brain activity. This matters if, as the author and some commenters seem to be doing, you make assertions about "the world we'll all be living in if their view prevails."
This kind of alarmism reminds me of the panic--which has proven unjustified, let alone manipulable by demagogues--that greeted The Origin of Species. "If Mr. Darwin's view prevails, we will all end up treating each other as apes." Please.
I'm also amazed that such an article can be written without once using the term "qualia."
Confusing the mind with the brain is an intellectual error of the first order. But are the consequences really so stark: loss of meaning, morality, dignity...? Do such important facets of human life really depend upon protecting ourselves from conjectures about how mind emerges from matter? The arguments presented here are not only inelegant and unjustified, they are irrational and paranoid (and they lead inexorably to a loss of meaning, morality, and human dignity). In short, this article is nothing but an assertion of dogmatic faith against erosive influences it doesn't want to face with intellectual honesty.
Strange that your anti-dogma reply is so dogmatic in tone while pretending to be rational. It's clear that you and others who seem unable to grasp that consciousness had so far eluded neuroscience that your trumpeting of the rightness of your opinions (counter-intuitively to your experiences as, I'm guessing, a 'human being') have all the rancor and hard-boiled fundamentalism of religious doctrine. Welcome, to the new Church of Neuroscience.
BTW: when did "scientific explanation" become this monolithic monstrosity in people's minds. It seems like some people experience a deep need to overestimate both the power and pretensions of scientific activities. Psychologists call this 'projection'. But real scientists don't expect a religion-level explanation of the world from their actions. They see themselves embedded in a process of trials, conjectures, and refutations.
Science only looks like a competing anti-religion or anti-metaphysics to people who are looking for a religion.
A string of tired philosophical cliche's. Does the author really believe that someone's inner experiences are so difficult to get to grips with? If that were the case, how the bloody hell do we have conversations or is it really her contention that we're all as aloof and unattached these scientific eliminativists are made out to be?
As always in situations where someone drags out the tired old canard that science can't explain everything, I'm left wondering why the hell people always drag out such poorly framed questions and then pretend they've proven something profound. You want to find out about my experiences, do the scientific thing and ask me. You want to find out if there is a correlation between my experiences and brain states, then use imaging technology and a properly designed experiment. You want to find out about expression of gene's and their impact on cognition do a properly designed population study. Ask a question that's so poorly framed it's unclear how to respond such as what's the qualia of green and don't be surprised to find me telling you to bugger off until you come back with a real question.
In your case I think the brain could be very easily mapped: one would just have to look up reactionary cliches and they'd be redirected to your brain. When was the last time any unpaid woman got to grip with your 'inner experiences?'
I've rarely seen this many non sequiturs in one place. If the author's entire sense of meaning and moral worth hinges on such incoherent mystery-mongering, then she has every reason to be so very afraid of what inquirers (scientists, philosophers, artists) might one day come to understand about the nature of the human mind.
Just re-read Schopenhauer, substitute 'will' for whatever metaphsical meaning or phrase you care to deem 'divine' or 'the truth', stop trying to argue with everything & enjoy yourself before oblivion beckons again & you wonder why you spent your life wondering about physical experience instead of trying it... or don't. Your call, I've made mine...
First, thank you to all who have submitted intelligent rebuttals to this article, which is plagued by a lack of understanding of the material. My two cents:
"And isn’t your pain felt in your tooth and your pleasure located in your breasts?"
The short answer is no. Phantom limb syndrome (where you feel pain in a part of your body that is no longer there) is testament to that.
"What about if a man objecting to a situation of social injustice were subjected to Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation to obliterate his present feeling of dissatisfaction and induce a feeling of pleasure? Surely what actually matters to him is the cognitive aspect of the dissatisfaction – the reason he was feeling it."
Except, as anyone who has run into similar situations under different moods can attest, you are not simply rationalizing - your mind and it's surroundings are engaged in a constant feedback loop, and if you're in a good mood, it will affect how you view a situation, compared to in a bad mood.
Some readers might be interested in the Neuropsychoanalytic Society. I'm not sure they go any further, but it's good to know that people are wrestling with this problem.
Some readers might be interested in the Neuropsychoanalytic Society. I'm not sure they go any further, but it's good to know that people are wrestling with this problem.
Usually in such discussions there are phrases such as "it's complex" and "we're not there yet." And the complexity itself is not addressed in any serious fashion. Feedback loops? Methods and influences of incorporating self-survival in thinking? (going all the way back to DNA and neurons in thingies that walked out of the seas) Recognition that one is human? Can a computer ever have the last?
What neurosciences are doing is not reducing mind to brain. The reduction is about theories. The theory explaining a phenomenon through a psychological process is supposed to be reducible to a theory explaining the same phenomenon through a neurological process (possibly in a more convoluted and less convenient manner). As Nagel put it, it is an inter-theoretic reduction, not an ontological one.
The article, on the other hand, is not up to date in the fine details of the science at work in this matter; see e.g. John BIckle (2003), Philosophy and Neuroscience: A Ruthlessly Reductive Account (Kluwer, Dordrecht), for specific examples and detailed elaboration.
I agree with the point above about conscious experiences being multifaceted and linked to other experiences in complex ways - ie "involutes".
I also agree with the point about us not knowing for sure that my experience of the colour "yellow" is the same as yours but we can mostly agree that it exists.
I am sure most neuroscientists are not so naive or thoughtless as not to consider these and many other concepts.
They have a job however of not being too "woolly minded" and concentrating on specific achievable provable goals using very limited equipment on a very complex thing - the brain.
I do not agree with the comment that "identity theorists can be so unintuitive", nor do I agree with most of what Jane O'Grady says - she sets up her own definition of what neuroscientists are trying to say or achieve and then dismisses it.
I'm not sure anyone yet is asserting that a brain can be exactly mapped or will ever be.
I do think that she must accept that, as the first commentator put it so well,"the mind is a function of the brain"
If it's not then what is it?
What is wrong with investigating it?
It seems she has an emotional dread of the mind being explained or understood as a natural phenomenon - why not?
Just because we understand how our muscles work doesn't mean we don't enjoy a game of soccer or golf.
The idea that scientists want us to stop using metaphors or having feelings is a bit far-fetched and paranoid.
Comparing either physical brain states or conscious experiences to "heat", "lightning" or "water" is misleading as the latter are relatively simple phenomena and the former are very,very,complex.
However just because thoughts are complicated and quite possibly unique doesn't mean that science cannot have something meaningful to say about them.
For example each blade of grass or snowflake may be unique but it doesn't mean we cannot say meaningful things about grass or snow without describing them in absolute detail.
But, as Wittgenstein says, the brain-owner, unlike the scientists clustering round him, is observing, or experiencing, two things rather than one. He can observe that when he ... thinks about certain things, certain activities occur in his brain at the same time. He experiences ... thinking in certain ways, and also he experiences observing his brain working in certain ways. The scientists only experience observing the brain working.
The brain-owner, at first, experiences [1] thinking about certain things and [2] observing that certain activities occur in his brain – the activities associated with [1]. The scientist can only experience [2]. But it can't end there. Observing that certain activities occur in his brain requires brain activity itself. At this level, then, the brain-owner experiences [2] observing that certain activities occur in his brain and [3] observing other activities are occurring in his brain – the activities associated with [2]. The scientist can only experience the [2] and [3] observations. However, [3] also requires brain activity on the part of the brain-owner. This goes on forever, one step at a time. It seems to me that, at some point, one of two things could happen. Either the brain-owner loses track of experience [1] resulting in the brain-owner and scientist making the same observations. Or the brain-owner refuses to experience an observation at some level. But then the brain-owner and the scientist would be differently occupied because the scientists could experience the observation. In either event, it doesn't seem that the brain-owner is experiencing exactly what the scientist is experiencing plus one.
I've never seen a comment thread start off so positively then precipitate into inanity so starkly. It's as if the first half have read Hofstadter's classic "Godel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid" and the other half--including O'Grady--haven't even heard of this Pulitzer Prize winner.
"It is a common notion that randomness is an indispensable ingredient of creative acts. This may be true, but it does not have any bearing on the mechanizability--or rather, programmability!--of creativity."
That the mind is what the brain does should be no harder (or easier) to grasp than accepting the notion that a sequence of amino acids codes for a tertiary protein structure.
The issue is really straightforward and simple. The neuroscientists 'believe' their measurements are mathematically rational and thus they use probability as a means to give a final answer to not just the mind- brain debate but the 'reality' debate. It is a philosophy of positivism whereby what is measured is our only reality and is verified by mathematical/calculus/probability principles.
The irony though, if you read the book Naming Infinity, you see that math itself has become a way to do philosophy as well as psychology and thus we accept transfinite numbers and all the consequences that go with it and thus we say that consciousness comes from the brain. But this is a philosophy first and last, and it involves irrational rational thought and misplaced mysticism.
There is a very big problem with this 'certainty', if you go back into the history of math and calculus and 'set theory' as devised by Georg Cantor. Set theory has been accepted in mathematics without any thought of consciousness and how the brain works and then the 'materialist-based' neuroscientists very naively make a huge error- they ignore this. They accept the idea that what we perceive is true based on mathematical principles of our number lines and its calculus based approximations, which uses set theory's proofs to give them assurance that they are right.
Here is where they are wrong, at least in my opinion. Yes we are tied to our brain just as what we see on TV does depend upon those transmissions, wireless or wired. If you do not have a brain that allows for the transmission of the color of say blue well then you never ever see what blue is. But you cannot mix up the color of blue with the brain defect anymore than you can say a black and white TV eliminates the idea of blue.
What is more important for mathematics and neuroscience to make sense is how the sensory process works and it is here where Set theory fails and with its failure, it takes away the whole mistaken mysticism with the material universe. Set theorists feel that you can have a true reality whereby there is continuous and discontinuous states, at the same time. This simply is not correct.
What you perceive is, I grant, entirely 'explained via the use of calculus based mathematical principles but what you sense, at the cell level is not. Sensation is always and will always be a mathematical process that is discontinuous and is never continuous. This mistake is huge. Not only is the mind not the brain but consciousness resides outside of discontinuous sensory impulses.
It is not just a mind-brain argument but a reality argument and neuroscience should not align itself with a material consciousness until our mathematicians settle their own issues. It is a problem with a mathematical solution. Once math became a philsophy of approximation, back with Cantor and Hilbert, we have been irretrievably going in the wrong direction...
Quite right. Materialist Monism is crude and reductionist.
And it certainly is most dehumanizing and controlling in dealing with those poor devils trapped in existential despair, namely the so called mentally ill
But where are you left when realizing the truth of this? I have no problem as I am a convinced Christian. As such I know man is more than mere molecules, but to an atheist man can be nothing but mere molecules.
As atheists you have nothing but nihilistic conglomerations of molecules come from nothing and headed to nothing.
I understood this age 19 and so did C S Lewis.
Faith does not commit intellectual suicide it gives thought meaning other than mere brain excitation.
Faith, anyone?
One technology can always be fought using another technology:
http://www.abandonedstuff.com/petfoilhat.html
I think perhaps this article shows the difficulties we face with many modern academic ideas - both philosophers and scientists are not really 100% sure what they are talking about because neither have a solid education about the broader implications of the current interdisciplinary landscape.
Firstly, lumping "scientists" or "philosophers" into specific groups is not only a terribly damaging stereotype but also extends this misunderstanding that there is a "them" and "us". Both groups have extremely diverse views with proponents for both sides of this argument about the mental. Many neuroscientists are obviously very interested in the how the mental relates to the brain, but this doesn't obviate a materialist or eliminativist philosophy. On the other hand many philosophers want to get to know about the mind without the usual linguistic, theological or conceptual restraints.
Secondly, for most people science is a model that is continuously modified to improve that model. As it is a model it does not state that it is the truth, only that it is based upon well tested foundations. The fact that science is moving toward more interdisciplinary work that embraces the humanities is a sign that we need the humanities to better improve our viewpoint - many of those is science are working to show how important it is to have a social, moral and cultural development to function well as a human being (which will hopefully bring more importance to the humanities themselves). Of course there are important things to discuss about this, but it should be done in a spirit of collaboration and understanding, not by getting the cannons out of the ivory towers.
Finally, the author is correct (at least in my opinion) to criticise the simplistic idea that thoughts can be fully understood by their physical location and dynamics in a brain that has developed in a very individual way based upon genetic, environmental and cultural factors and that this will only hold in the most general of cases (e.g. position neurons that fire when facing a specific direction). However, this does not mean we must subscribe to epiphenomenalism or other such arm-chair theories - this is precisely the reason for scientist's criticism of folk psychology; why only make a conceptual hypothesis if you can back up your intuitions with experiment and perspectives from a number disciplines?
Personally I think that neuroscience will only erode meaning or ethical views if we forget that it is a model and do not explore the origins of subjective experience, neither of which will happen. I also believe that modern science is finally cottoning on to the importance of culture and society, as shown by the social sciences overlap that is described. Indeed I think you'll find that young scientists and young philosophers are a VERY different breed to the dinosaurs currently residing in our universities - SciArt, interdisciplinarity and collaboration are on the up and are actually starting to mean something. And yes, it is up to us to avoid cynical 'leaders' using the new sciences against ordinary people, but we've never really done a particularly good job of that, so that's nothing new.
We need to go beyond this pointless argument about the importance of the scientific model vs the importance of conceptual lucidity in philosophy and we'll only do this by respecting each other.
p.s. to Connie15, there are a number of different ways to physically or chemically interact with a person's body and it is just the same for the brain. For instance, you can use psychiatric drugs (chemicals) to change the 'way' a person thinks (by influencing what pathways fire), whilst you can also use electromagnetic energy to knock someone out, or directly put an electric current into a neural pathway (when you have access to someone's brain whilst they are awake!) to cause them to hear a piece of music/see someone's face/etc. depending on where you poke, or use psychological techniques to make someone respond to an external stimulus. These are all quite crude examples but in the future it *may* be possible to subtly influence someone's thoughts with physical interventions whilst genetic personalisation may help make drugs less crude.
Reading this thread I was amazed by the arrogance and the scientific absolutism of the neuroscience lobby. We are told to accept that science is sacred and regard any attempt to prove that consciousness resides outside our understanding of brain states as superstition, mystic phooey, witchcraft. Yet, the neuroscience lobby in its material fundamentalism is open to EXACTLY the same accusations. They have the fury and rancor of religious extremists and ask us to give up intuitive ideas based on our experience to their Church of Neuroscience. As for the poor specimen who has embraced Marxism and now says that the answer must be materialism one wonders why it has to be either? They talk of intellectual honesty yet they cannot refute Wittgenstein's argument . Debunking humanity is a popular and easy pastime but let us us admit that we don't know the answers and throwing ourselves behind brittle little belief systems is like sticking our thumb in the hole in the dam.
An interesting article. However, some of its credibility is lost due to the lack of the views considering the system theory and emergent phenomena (e.g. the work by Antonio Damasio).
The mapping of the direct (exact) correlations between versatile "categories of human thought" and neurological activity becomes uninteresting when we are able to identify the dimensions (uniqueness) of introspection and it's connection to the both linguistic and physiological systems (and vice versa).
nowhere in this thread is a yogi .. too bad
It has long been proven that human mind is created by the attachment of language at birth. The knowledge and wisdom is far deeper and more extensive than numerology.
Anyone with this knowledge can accurately can describe anyone's nature, any health weaknesses and degree of success in life as well as other details often known only to the individual.
Thousands of name analyses have been given to people around the world together with the knowledge that a proper change of name will change one's life.
The brain is not one's mind; mind is created through language. Both the mind and body are important. However, one's mind is the program whereas the brain is the instrument through which the program manifests. Even though has long been known and has references to the fact in the Holy Christian Bible, the wisdom has been lost. Until humanity fully understands the relationship between language and human mind, it will continue to create discordant minds and ever-increasing sicknesses, diseases, accidents, suicides, etc. It is well-known that mental problems are a major problem and getting worse.
The keys and proof of all this are available to those who seek.
Language as a means to communication is a discrete phenomenon that the human being has, or usually has, versus a dog or a cat. But it is far from the only kind of communication. The brain has multiple discrete systems- the five senses, the ability to count, the ability to measure. And even each sense has discrete systems within each sense...for example position sense versus pain and temperature where each is carried in separate discrete neural pathways. They also have a sense of self, a personal self, that can laugh or cry, get angry or moody, pay attention or not... as well as the will to care for the truth or not...
Thus one can have an right MCA infarct and lose one's language abilities. Does that ruin one's mind more than also losing the ability to sense one's right side? It is a loss of each discrete system and if you are right about language then the loss of language is the only the thing that matters to your mind ...and that just does not make any sense to me. It is simply a loss of one discrete means of communication, a vey important one at that but you still are a human being with a consciousness but now cannot speak nor perceive your right side but you still have a consciousness.
I think people forget what makes a neuron different than any other cell. We like to think that somehow consciousness arises via the neuronal DNA and the neurotransmitters but you forget that DNA is common to ALL cells and neurotransmission occurs in neuronal systems outside of the brain. We have DNA and neurotransmitters within our rectum too but no consciousness. The same thing is true with language...you can just lose this and not affect consciousness. What makes a neuron different from a liver cell is just one thing...it conducts a discrete signal.....as a wire...no different than the wiring in our house or TV. The brain is just a discrete communication system which can process words, colors, coldness, movement etc and yes we can give all these processes a word...and thus we think language arranges everything. But you make a huge error- you assume that what you sense is truly material when in fact it can ONLY be sensed because it is an energetic process... E may equal m c squared and thus m is E/ c squared and we say, 'well matter can become energy'... but you fail to see that what we have found out is matter is only energy...it is in rhythmic movement...and thus it has no materialist basis. Socrates was right when in Phaedo he said man was 'in the middle' of existence, not on the top... read what Torretti said about matter and energy...thus language systems do not make up the mind...they are only one system that the mind puts to use. What is real MUST simply be in a place we cannot sense for what we CAN sense must be a moving discrete and rhythmic process. And this is where the math comes into play and where you need to understand that natural number is always discrete, rhythmic, and discontinuous and what we call real numbers cannot be the right explanation for it is a system of continuity..of continuous change i.e. 0/0 to infinity/0 but N can only have 1/1 to infinity/1...we just want it to be in continuous order to keep us thinking we actually know what we are doing...and if you look at the world and what is happening...who in their right mind can think we actually have a clue how to get out of our mess?
The first error dooms the whole process...
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