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Gaza: hope after attack

Paul Rogers, 1 - 01 - 2009
Israel's air assault on Gaza offers an intensification of rather than escape from its cycle of conflict with the Palestinians. 

The Israeli operation in Gaza that began on 27 December 2008 is uncannily similar to the military offensives conducted in the West Bank in the first months of 2002 in response to suicide-bombings in Israel. An earlier column in this series provided an analysis pointing to the “… systematic process of dismantling [of] the apparatus of the Palestine National Authority (PNA)” (see "Israel's strategy: the impotence of arms", 10 April 2002). 

The article continued:

“Much of the military action has been directed against the police and security forces of the PNA, with substantial numbers having been killed and many more hundreds taken into custody. Police stations and barracks have been destroyed, as have intelligence and security centres. Moreover, and in some ways much more significant, there has been the destruction of the PNA’s administrative infrastructure.

“Information on this remains incomplete but is sufficient to show that there has been widespread destruction of offices and facilities of PNA ministries and Palestinian non-government organisations. The ministry of local government and the ministry of education in Ramallah have been ransacked by Israeli troops as has the Palestinian bureau of statistics.”

At that time, some analysts anticipated that the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) would extend their actions into Gaza, but international opposition to the casualties and destruction in the West Bank, and internal concern over the consequences of such an escalation, prevented that. Instead, the emphasis remained on the West Bank, with the construction of the massive security “wall” and forceful control over the Palestinian population movements within its confines. Both of these policies fuelled a burning resentment.

The firing-range

The first five days of the military assault in Gaza have been focused almost entirely on air attacks and naval bombardment. The stated aim is to bring to an end the firing by the Islamist movement Hamas of crude unguided rockets, often home-made, onto those areas of Israel close to Gaza. In practice, however, the attacks have - as in the West Bank in 2002 - been directed mainly at the official buildings  administred by Hamas since its election victory in Palestine in January 2006. Many government offices as well as buildings of the Islamic University have been demolished, and the Gaza police have been a particular target; one of the earliest attacks killing around sixty cadets attending a graduation ceremony at the police academy.

Yet by 31 December, Israel's campaign appears to have had a minimal impact on the rockets being fired from Gaza. At least sixty were launched that day; three reached as far as the Negev city of Beersheba (forty-six kilometres from Gaza), others landed on Ashkelon (which has an oil terminal) and Ashdod (Israel's fifth-largest city, and a major port). Informed Israeli sources indicate that Hamas still has 2,000 available for use, some of them able to reach deep into Israel. Most are rudimentary, but some of those smuggled in through tunnels under the border with Egypt may include missiles with a far longer range.

Most international opinion has been critical of the sheer scale of the Israeli military action, especially in terms of the number of civilian casualties. There is little sign though of this having any impact on Israel’s conduct of the war. The factors which motivate Israel to press on may include political consideratiions related to the forthcoming Israeli election, and the opportunity provided by the fact that the departing George W Bush administration - with its record of support for Israeli actions - remains in office. But there are broader issues that also help explain Israel's motivations.

The conventional view is that Israel is a singularly powerful state possessed of some of the world’s most advanced military forces. This gives it clear superiority over the armies of its Arab neighbours, and an overwhelming advantage over Hamas militias. In a superficial sense this is unquestionably true, but the characterisation also masks a reality that has come to have an increasing impact over the last generation: that Israel is more and more vulnerable to forms of irregular and asymmetrical warfare, and does not know how to handle them except by responding with massive force.

The problem of force

The first indications of this trend were visible as early as Operation Peace for Galilee - the official title of Israel's invasion of Lebanon launched in 1982. The ostensible purpose of the attack was to counter unguided rockets being fired by Palestinian militias into northern Israel, but its real motive was to destroy the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) as a functioning paramilitary organisation.

In a matter of days, the powerful IDF ground-forces advanced to the fringes of west Beirut. A lengthy bombardment and siege followed, which culminated in massacres in mid-September by rightwing Phalangist militias of Palestinian civilians Sabra and Shatila refugee-camps. In the horrified aftermath, Israeli forces withdrew from the immediately vicinity, but they  but remained entrenched in occupation of much of southern Lebanon. The occupation gradually became untenable in the face of guerrilla actions by Hizbollah paramilitaries, which by 1985 had killed 300 soldiers of the IDF. Israel withdrew from all but a twenty-five-kilometre security-zone on Lebanese territory north of its border, which it in turn evacuated in May 2000. 

From the mid-1980s onwards, Israel's defence strategy focused on the homeland itself, underpinned by a commitment to use considerable force against any direct threat. This approach in turn received a rude awakening on the second night of the war with Saddam Hussein's Iraq over Kuwait in January 1991, when Iraq's Scud missiles landed on Israel's territory. The winter nights that followed were far more traumatic than most outside observers appreciated.

The memories of that period were significant in motivating Israel's assault on Hizbollah in the war July-August 2006; in part because the rockets then being launched from Lebanon - far more numerous and deadly than the Scuds - were stark reminders of the vulnerabilities exposed fifteen years earlier.

Israel's great military superiority was not enough to defeat Hizbollah in 2006; indeed, by many estimates the Lebanese movement itself emerged as the victor (see Zaid Al-Ali, "'Whatever happens, Hizbollah has already won'", 9 August 2006). The uneasy peace established in the aftermath, which still persists, reflects the new balance of power: for Hizbollah is now even more heavily armed than before, with longer-range missiles that could threaten Israel right down to Tel Aviv and beyond. Now, in Gaza, Israel also faces increasingly sophisticated irregular warfare - especially rocket-attacks - from Hamas, and believes that it is essential to bring this to an end. The problem is that the use of overwhelming force which is its preferred option simply "has" to work. This is a reason for thinking that after five days the conflict may still be in its early stages.

The Israeli imperative

Israel's strategy in Gaza has to work for three reasons:

* Hamas itself must be so weakened that the rocket-attacks will cease or be reduced to an absolute minimum

* there must be no risk whatsoever of any paramilitary group developing similar tactics in the West Bank. A nightmare for the more thoughtful Israeli military planners is that any perception of success for Hamas stemming from the use of the rockets could well lead to groups on the West Bank developing the same tactics. The proximity of the occupied territories means that that would put all the heavily populated areas of Israel at risk

* the massive use of force in Gaza must send a message to Hizbollah that Israel has learned from its failure in 2006 and will never tolerate a further shower of rockets from southern Lebanon (see "Lebanon: the war after the war", 11 October 2006).

The problem is that although Operation Cast Lead "has" to work, the chances of it doing so are remote. For unless Israel reoccupies the whole of the Gaza strip and maintains rigid control over a deeply antagonistic population of nearly 1.5 million Palestinians, the rocket-attacks will almost certainly continue. What must be appreciated is that there is now widespread knowledge of how to construct crude but deadly devices from quite basic materials using equally rudimentary machinery. Moreover, the very intensity of the Israeli military action demonstrates how effective in their political impact these rockets can be.

Indeed, the way these rockets have developed in Gaza since 2007 is far more significant than most people realise. It is at least as important as the rapid evolution of improvised explosive devices (IEDs) in Iraq and Afghanistan, with all the effects that they have had and continue to have. The consequence of not countering these crude Gaza rockets is that Israel's security will deteriorate still further. Many Israelis understand the predicament, while making the fundamental mistake of believing that this is a problem with a military answer.

The early indications are that public opinion in Israel is supportive of the operation in Gaza. It may take time, but at some point time in the coming years there more and more Israelis will come to realise that there is no alternative to a negotiated and fair settlement with the Palestinians, both in the West Bank and Gaza. It is just possible that the disaster that is now unfolding, for Israelis as well as Palestinians, will actually hasten that process.

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Jake Belman (not verified) said:



Wed, 2009-01-07 21:05

Cite an example where the abandonment of extremist claims has been the "outcome" of the negotiation process when dealing with Islamic fundamentalism.

To dismiss the religious element from the Palestinian-Israeli question as "historically naive" is unfair, and I notice that, as is typical with your argumentation, you offer no facts to support your position. Only idealistic generalities. In point of fact, it is almost always historically naive to dismiss religion, as it is one of the most dominant forces in the course of history. However odd this may seem to the Western "rational" mind, history is replete with religious testimony - and never more so than in this part of the world.

Is it your contention that religion and theology play no role in the current Middle-Eastern crisis?

Your original response about consequences implied that one should rethink their actions if they are likely to cause more harm than good. I agree. But again, this is a general principle that needs to be qualified.

Your exact statement was: "And what makes you so sure that an attempt to destroy the miliary wings of Hamas will not lead to the creation of powerful bodies intent on destroying peace?"

It is difficult to see how this can be interpreted in any manner other than that it is your position that Israel shouldn't attack Hamas because it will create more enemies for the Jewish State as well as to the entire peace process. In light of Hamas' repeated rocket attacks, which prompted the counter-response, what is this if not a statement denying or at the very least strongly discouraging Israel's right to defend itself?

opendemocracy said:



Thu, 2009-01-08 09:37

1. Northern Ireland. (dealing with several fundamentalisms, and Tony Blair should know better in his current role)

2. The historical naivety is to think that ideology -- including in its religious form -- stands still. The claim is not that ideology has no causal role.

3. I rest my case on the confusion here.

Tony

Jake Belman (not verified) said:



Tue, 2009-01-06 03:52

It is the position of the United States government, the European Union, Japan and Canada, that Hamas - in its entirety - is a terrorist organization. The U.K. and Australia, while perhaps reflecting some of the nuance and multi-faceted analysis of Hamas reflected in Sara Roy's polemic, have nevertheless listed its military wing, Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist entity. Indeed, even Israel's immediate eastern neighbor, Jordan, has banned Hamas from its territory.

Repeated attempts to paint a more flattering picture of Hamas - as that of a complex organization undergoing a state of "evolutionary change," and one that is becoming more amenable to legitimate political dialogue and willing to repudiate its nascent ideology of waging war through terror - cannot be substantiated.

For example, Hamas apologists often point to Hamas' acceptance of the Arab Peace Initiative as proof of the organization's ability to "negotiate" differences with Israel in addition to its willingness to reconcile grievances with the Jewish State in a manner that doesn't involve, as its inevitable endgame, its annihilation.

But such conciliatory words - and, indeed, that's all they are: words - are actually more ominous in nature than they are open. To cite just one example, consider the proposal made by Hamas' leadership of a 10-year truce (or hudna) conditioned on Israel's complete withdrawal from the territories it captured during the Six Day war. Even the most optimistic Jew living within the borders of Israel, one favoring intense political engagement, negotiation and hard compromise with Hamas, would be compelled to ask: "And after the 10 years . . .then what?"

Indeed, the very notion of an indefinite truce (i.e., lasting peace) with Israel is eliminated from the discussion because of Hamas' strict interpretation of the Koran and Islamic law, which forbids the reliquishment of lands - including all of Palestine - once entrusted to Allah. All such lands are deemed as inalienable trust (Waqf), forever consecrated to future generations of Muslim believers until the Day of Judgement. To dismiss the religious significance of the struggle, which Hamas leadership has tried to do in recent years in an attempt to repudiate charges of antisemitism and gain political legitimacy for their agenda, is impossible. At its core, the struggle is about religion and a fundamentalist Islamic worldview, which is irrevocably tied to the land of Israel, whether pre-1967 borders or post.

Regarding your second objection, the argument that Israel's military campaign to wipe out Hamas, even if successful, will likely result in the creation of more enemies and therefore shouldn't be implemented - this is specious reasoning, as the conclusion effectively abrogates the right to self-defense, an inalienable right embodied within the charter of the United Nations and recognized under international law. Using similar reasoning, we might conclude that it would be wrong for an individual to defend themselves if by doing so they engendered the creation of others who likewise wished them harm.

opendemocracy said:



Tue, 2009-01-06 21:16

There are a small number of successful peace processes. It is very safe to say that none of them has been successful through shock and awe. Instead, the abandonment of extremist claims has been the _outcome_ of the negotiation process, not its precondition.

Your confident resort to essentialist opinions about theology sounds very empty and historically naive.

Your resort to talk of "rights to self-defense" in the face of a prediction of consequences makes me despair. Rights live in the world of value; judgements of consequence do not. How a prediction of consequence can "abrogate a right" is quite beyond comprehension.

Tony

Barry R (not verified) said:



Sun, 2009-01-04 04:27

Isn't this like the Medusa's head. Cut off one and ten grow in its place. In this way, Israel creates its own enemies.

Mutual trade might be the only way that these warring factions might say forget the past, how do we work together?

Joe Panzica (not verified) said:



Sun, 2009-01-04 00:47

Continued reliance on warfare is an eventual death sentence for Israel whose firepower can destabilize and destroy, but cannot build or organize.

Destruction and destabilization in the Arab world are the dragon's teeth breeding the kind of fanaticism that launches rockets or propels human bombs.

Does Israel really believe it has the firepower or terror capacity to occupy millions of Palestinians forever?

Any apparent "victory" of the latest Israeli invasion will be short-lived with only more VERY tragic long term consequences for both Israelis and Arabs.

pmatassa said:



Sun, 2009-01-04 00:21

 

Thissituation has gone on a long time. Both sides have had more than their share ofsuffering and both sides can honestly point to horrendous activities by theother side. 

Thereality is that if there is not a different approach taken this war will go on indefinitelyor until it ignites World War III, at which point the whole Middle East will bedestroyed as part of the conflict/

 Fortunatelyit doesn't have to be this way. Both sides can start to realize the truefolly of the current situation and take steps to realistically change what'shappening here. Michael Laitman, has pretty accurately described what it willtake to turn this situation around go to http://www.laitman.com/2008/07/a-society-of-life-surrounded-by-a-society-of-death/ forfurther details.

Youmay think I'm being a dreamer to suggest this, that may be true but continuing downthe current path is simply insanity. Take your choice, dreamer or insanity, theanswer seems obvious!  

 

YDavidson (not verified) said:



Sat, 2009-01-03 19:14

I am an Israeli (yes, one of those evil, despicable, horrible people). I publicly supported Israel's withdrawal from Gaza not because I thought it would bring greater near-term security, since I didn't think it would, but because a) it was the morally right thing to do b) in the long run Israel will not survive if it continues to hold on to the territories.
As it turns out, the present Israeli government was elected on a platform of unilateral withdrawal along the Gaza model.
Practically from the day Israel left Gaza, Hamas has been firing rockets, first as a mere insurgency and now as the elected government of Gaza. And has given no indication that it will ever stop. I still support Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank, for the reasons stated above.
Which is why I support what Israel is doing now, notwithstnding all the legitimate criticisms one can make, and they are legitimate. Until Hamas stops murdering Israeli civilians at will as a matter of high policy the Palestinians are doomed, along with all of us.

nihal amarasinghe (not verified) said:



Sat, 2009-01-03 17:57

Aspasia is quite wrong - all of Palestine does not belong to Israel and 52% was, given to it in1948
It now holds about 86% of historic Palestine, the addtional territory being annexed through war and settlement building

Rossross has actually hit the nail on the head - all those obstacles exist and Israel and the US have done everything in their power to prevent the formation of a viable, autonomous Palestinian State. Bush swore that there would be a Palestinian state in 2005 - speaking after the destruction of Jenin in 2002. IsraeL does not just go after a few wanted terrorists; it targets a whole infrastructure, imposes collective punishment on a population, and is close to meeting at least three of the UN's criteria for genocide. These criteria are readily available, also read Sarah Roy's article on tthe Londom Review of Books website.

This article is quite limited, it does not look at why Oslo failed, it does not discuss the illegal settlements, the restriction fo checkpoints, the destruction of Gaza airport by the Israeils, making gaza the biggest concentration camp in the world -siege and starvation of gaza which started in 2006. It does not even attempt to give an historical overview and does not confront the problems amd psychology of displacement, exile and dispossession

Outlining these points does not make for unqualified support for Hamas - its more extreme policies are repugnant, as are those of the israeli army and pyscopathic Israeli Politicians who believe human lives are expendable - not their own , of course.
This could be said of both sides, but these attitudes did not materialise yesterday . The rockets, kidnappings and abductions, harrassment and humiliations have been going on all the time - when Israel wishes to take one of these incidents on to the next level,, it will take one example, exaggerate and decontextualize it and use it as a pretext to pursue further hostilties. Hamas is also to blame in its defiance - but how can not expect a people to find radical solutions when all other moderate and democratic avenues have been systematically closed to them ? Just take the elections for one..

Should we punish the US for having elected Bush in 2000 and 2004 ?
Fatah was deliberatley unermined by the US and israel prior to the elections, the election of Hamas was exactly the outcome they intended. Why ? So that they could then legitiamtely destroy it and end all resistance ot the Isralei annexation of all Palestine
The partition of Palestine was an imposed solution - both sides have missed opportunities - let us not forge tthatthe assassination of Rabin by right wing israelis too k the peace process back to the Stone Aages
Most people are right now horrified by israel's bloodthirstiness - we've seen thes hock and awe display - what more do you want to prove ? That you can completley crush a people? israel has just refused the offer of an EU truce.
Hmaas offered a truce in 2006 when it came to power - in democratic elections. It offered IsraeL an indefinite truce -hudna - if israel withdrew to the 1967 Greenlines (Incidentally, the wall is a new border - admtted by Israeli offciials and the fact that Israel has never defined its borders allows it to absorb more land)
This offer has also been reiterated by the Saudis earlier this year and originally in 2002 by Crown prince Aabdullah
No interest has been shown so far by israel.

leif persson (not verified) said:



Sat, 2009-01-03 13:14

This is an issue about land, and has nothing to do about jews or arabs. Look at the world history. Countries have allways been trying to enlarge their territories (and thereby their influence). As long as Israel does not specify their geographical borders ( or claim for land compared to 1948), there will be no solution.
Blue and yellow.

freespeechlover (not verified) said:



Sat, 2009-01-03 07:13

Olmert said it correctly in the Dec. 4, 2008 interview in the NY Review of Books--whoever wants to control all of E. Jerusalem will have to absorb 800,000 Palestinians into Israel. This is also true for the West Bank and Gaza. The writers here who think that Israel's policies since 1967 are not illegal and more importantly are useful to Israel existing in its neighborhood are blind to this basic fact--that Israel cannot have control over the daily lives of millions of Palestinians and expect security let alone peace. Israel and Washington D.C. are the handmaiden to the current empowerment of Hamas and Hezbollah. If Israel wants to continue defacto annexation without also taking in the people already on the land as citizens, if it wants to continue living in denial about the fact that it is no longer possible to keep expanding without taking in the Palestinians, then Israel will continue to met with increasingly violent forms of resistance which threaten its civilians. Washington D.C. has provided cover for this escalating dynamic for years by not allowing Israel to live in denial. Indeed, if the two state solution is dead, as it seems increasingly to the be the case, that is Washington D.C.'s creation, largely as a result of domestic politics in which Israel's lobby is blind to the limits of power.

Those who defend colonialism really ought to study its history to see what are its dynamics and where it leads. Israel is not going to wipe the Palestinians off the face of the map. It tried and failed to do so in 1948, and thus the Palestinians will always be Israel's problem until it grants them the national project that the British denied them.

Daniel Kelley (not verified) said:



Sat, 2009-01-03 06:42

How does this junk wind up on supposed peace and people minded "alternative" news sites?

"...it masks a reality that Israel has become more and more vulnerable to forms of irregular warfare and simply doesn’t know how to handle them except by responding with massive force. "

We make it this far into this article without the least examination of the cause of this conflict. Occupation. Not merely occupation, but occupation and settlement of stolen land.

The book of numbers records Moses, Pharoahs adopted son, first telling the Jewish people to intently steal "borrowed" gold from the Egyptain commoners. Then he tells them he's got a great place to take them, the promised land. Then they get on the road and Moses flips the script, tells them to JUST keep marching and because the complain he swears that NONE of them will ever make it to the promised land. Eventually only 1 of the original tribe that fled Egypt is alive, Joshua, who is then tasked to slaughter the whole of the civilization that resided in then Canaan. Joshua's then army was the descendants of those promised the Promised Land, though were NEVER delivered to the promised land, thanks the all holy Moses.

The gold "borrowed", really stolen, from Egyptian commoners, in todays version of these similar events, is the land stolen from common Palestinians. It might also be well considered the decades of harassment and strife which has impoverished most Palestinians.

The statement I'm here quoting from the article, which laid bare for me this piece is propaganda, insinuates that the solution is some smaller scale military operation, rather than a complete withdrawal from the lands that were owned by Palestinian grandparents.

The purpose of the present violence is to submerse many people in fatal lifestyles, by forced militarization. It is yet another cull of grand scale enacted by the financially dominant.

opendemocracy said:



Sat, 2009-01-03 21:49

Daniel, It is a pity you can't hold your anger to read to the end of an artilce. You might otherwise have seen a carefully constructed build-up to this conclusion:

[The] fundamental mistake [of many Israelis] is to believe this is a problem with a military answer. 

 

Tony

JeremyLondon (not verified) said:



Fri, 2009-01-02 23:13

Colorado Blue has made some valid points as to the wider situation of Palestinian refugees and the involvement of the Arab League.

I do believe that the most advanced technology we can develop at this moment in time is not silicon based or with explosives. I believe it is the intimate study, understanding and attention to how we communicate. Both with ourselves and each other.

I wholeheartedly agree with the distrust of peace agreements. The agreements that need to be created are on personal levels, at ground level.

Everyone wakes and returns to the world, everyone has the same needs of safety, dignity and respect. When these are not being met, then frustration and anger develops. Conflict breeds.

The cycle of violence requires a new mindset to develop, throughout the population that experiences this violence, in order for new relationships to reveal themselves.

If only violence was a solution, if only....

gray said:



Fri, 2009-01-02 23:00

The above comments highlight the fallacies of the current positions. While most a based on fact, they are very selective facts, and none present respect for the humanity, rights and interests of both sides. Unless we are able to develop a discussion that achieves, this, I suggests, the conflict will enevitably continue.

For Pauls' objectives to be achieved, the Israelis need to find a way to respond to the Palestinian positions with some genuine undestanding, and the Palestinians need to be able to respond in a similar way.

 Is this a futile hope?

 Gray Southon

Jake Belman (not verified) said:



Fri, 2009-01-02 22:50

The problem with Paul Rogers' analysis is that is proceeds from a false, albeit logical, assumption: namely, that Hamas (and those like them) are legitimate partners of a peaceful solution achieved through diplomatic discourse and "win/win" compromise. In other words, it assumes that Hamas are rational, bonafide partners to a peaceful resolution.

While a "negotiated" settlement to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict would indeed be preferable - not merely for the region but for the entire world - the reality will never be achieved unless Israel's security is guaranteed.

Let me say that again:

Israel's security is a sine qua non to any "negotiated" peace settlement in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

This simple yet powerful truth is the only legitimate basis for a peace initiative, whether past, present or future. Gauged by action, this means that groups like Hamas and Hezbollah would have to acknowledge, first, that Israel has a right to exist (something they haven't even done rhetorically) and, second, cease firing rockets into Israel's heartland as well as repudiate and suspend suicide bombings as a legitimate means of "resistance."

However "disproportionate" and "heavy-handed" Israel's military response(s) may appear to their critics, the fact remains, they are indeed "responses," prompted and precipitated by aggressive, warring actions taken by their enemies, including Hezbollah and Hamas.

Paraphrasing Alan Dershowitz, I challenge Israel's detractors (Paul Rogers included) to refute the following statements as they pertain to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict:

If Israel lays down their arms, there would be genocide.
If the Arab world lays down their arms, there would be peace.

opendemocracy said:



Sat, 2009-01-03 21:58

Can you explain, Jake, exactly how the current attack will lead to Hamas militants  "laying down their arms"?

 

Tony

Jake Belman (not verified) said:



Sun, 2009-01-04 00:37

Hamas' covenant states that "there is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad."

Hence, "laying down their arms" is not an option for Hamas. Whether Israel "lays down their arms" or defends is academic: Hamas' militants will lay down their arms when (and only when) Israel is effaced off the map.

When Jihad has accomplished its goal.

Since the threat is existential (and impervious to compromise or any type of "negotiation" that doesn't involve the destruction of the Jewish State), Israel has few options. It can either defend, albeit imperfectly with imperfect results . . . or die.

Which would you choose?

opendemocracy said:



Sun, 2009-01-04 20:46

So ... you ended your first comment with the thought that "the Arabs must lay down their arms for peace." You start this one with "Hamas cannot lay down their arms" and this comforts you in the view that "Peace can only come through the destruction of Hamas."

Let's agree on the logical steps here: it is true that you cannot have peace if there exists a powerful body intent on destroying peace. It follows also that avoiding outcomes that create such bodies should be an aim of peace-makers.

What makes you so sure about the nature of Hamas? Did you read Sara Roy on "What is Hamas?

And what makes you so sure that an attempt to destroy the miliary wings of Hamas will not lead to the creation of powerful bodies intent on destroying peace?

Tony

 

 

opendemocracy said:



Tue, 2009-01-06 21:08

this thread continues, out of order, below

AroelPp (not verified) said:



Fri, 2009-01-02 22:21

What most Israelis, and, unfortunately. U.S. backed Jewish congregations, do not understand is that a peace treaty requires more than ONE voice and more than ONE point of view to accomplish any agreed upon terms. The Israelis have always believed that to achieve peace in the Palestinian conflict requires the Palestinians to acquiesce to ALL Israeli demands without any discernible discussions from the Palestinian side whatsoever. The Israelis are able to achieve this one-sided deal breaker because the U.S. blindly agrees to All Israeli contentions.

So what is the "Palestinian" option. Simple. It is the Patrick Henry option: give me liberty or give me death. And the Israelis, much like we are doing in Iraq, are providing the Palestinians with the death option because the peace option will NEVER be offered to them.

The sad reality in this conflict is that most Palestinians and Israelis alike want peace in the region. Alas, both are controlled by warmongering sadistic fools whose only mission in life is the annihilation of the other part.

experimentalis said:



Fri, 2009-01-02 20:21

Α serious and sober analysis, conclusion included

Monia (not verified) said:



Fri, 2009-01-02 20:10

Let me say first that resistance is a legitimate right and self defence is innate in all beings, let alone humans. But the thing is that humanity in Palestine is underrated. Then, It would be very narrowminded to lay the blame on the religious inspiration of the Palestinian fighters while forgetting, as Roger indicated, that Israel "doesn't know how to handle forms of warfare except by responding with massive force". As for stamping Hamas as radicals is simply a justification of the "ruthless" agression and assassinations practiced on civilians, who are put on the same line. Finally we should not forget to study zionism more deeply and not only Islam.

aspacia (not verified) said:



Fri, 2009-01-02 19:52

Peace will never occur until one side annihilates the other. Hamas, and most of the Arab world want to annihilate Israel, and have openly made this assertion. Hence, if Israel is to survive, she must play hardball.

As to the occupation-- nonsense! Israel was targeted, and won the land fair and square. No one has the right to deny her the right to this territory.

The Arab world initially disregarded UN mandate regarding the creation of Israel, hence Israel disregards the UN as well.

Israel has the right to survive, and is of far more benefit to humanity, than any other part of the Middle-East.

Colorado Blue (not verified) said:



Fri, 2009-01-02 19:34

Interesting piece, but the comment by "rosross" is beyond misleading and it is totally unfair.

For one thing no mention is made of the powerful UAR, the Soviet backing of Arab factions, the initial war against the Jews that was supported by no less than the Nazis and their successors in the Middle East, and the fact that many of the Middle Eastern wars were proxy wars between the Great Powers.

No discussion of the Arab/Israeli conflict or the situation of the Palestinians, then or now, can make any real sense without this historical perspective.

Moreover Palestinian nationhood was not respected by Jordan or Egypt - Jordan cleansed Judea and Samaria and East Jerusalem - the "West Bank" - of its Jewish residents and annexed the territories, whose Arab citizens then became Jordanians. The Egyptians locked the gates on the displaced people in Gaza - even though many have relatives in Egypt.

The Lebanese to this day maintain "refugee camps" which are actually small cities, more than 60 years after the 1948 war; and in turn lost sovereignty over them by virtue of the Cairo Accords.

The Lebanese Civil War itself involved military action and atrocities against the Lebanese by the Palestinians as well as attacks against Israel launched from Lebanese soil.

Black September in Jordan was an attempt by PLO forces to kill King Hussein. This resulted in thousands and thousands of deaths and the expulsion of the PLO from Jordan to Lebanon.

That is just a little of the history of this situation. It is far more complicated than "rosross" would apparently have us believe.

Moreover the existence of "refugee camps" in Gaza and the West Bank is absurd; others continue to be maintained in Syria. The existence of UNRWA, which was supposed to have been a short term deal, has in fact helped perpetuate this misery and that whole policy needs to be reconsidered as does the rejection of Palestinians by their fellow Arabs.

Palestinians have been expelled en masse from Libya, Kuwait, are now personae non grata in Iraq because of their support for Saddam Hussein; and I understand haven't been allowed to flee from there into Syria.

Moreover it is difficult for Palestinians to get citizenship in many of the 22 plus Arab League states.

Finally there is the issue of borders. Israel, like any other state, like the Palestinians, has the right to security and peace. As long as there is a situation of war where shall the borders be drawn?

And also, Jewish citizenship in the region long predates either Christianity or Islam and it certainly predates Arab hegemony or the Greek, Roman, Ottoman, British, French, Soviet or American empires.

All of these factors must be considered when we discuss the Arab/Israeli conflict and as we search for rational solutions to the problem.

Finally, there is one other fact that people like to ignore when attacking Israel: the Arab League controls an enormous land mass. Israel is about the size of Delaware and represents the homeland of an ancient and historically abused people who only a short time ago were very nearly exterminated.

Can we work with these facts and go from there?

I'm linking a map of the region so people can at least partially appreciate its sheer size - and needless to say it has vast resources. In so doing I do not endorse the article, but merely present the map.

Israel is nine miles wide at its narrowest point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League

maceoin said:



Fri, 2009-01-02 18:26

I really am fed up with references to 'a massive security "wall"'. Prof. Rogers knows perfectly well it is only a wall for 3% of its length, and for the rest is a fence, similar to numerous security barriers round the world. It should never be mentioned without reference to the indisputable fact that it has reduced the death rate from suicide and other attacks by between 80% and 90%.

I agree with the last commentator that making peace with the Palestinians (or their leaders) is very hard indeed, and not through Israel's fault. People writing on this subject need to think less conventionally, and they have to study Islam more deeply, specifically the laws governing jihad. This is where Hamas, a branch of the radical Muslim Brotherhood, takes its inspiration, and this is why its 1988 Covenant rejects out of hand any form of peace talks, international conferences, or compromise. They spell it out: there is only one solution to the Israel-Palestine question — jihad. I quote almost word for word. They envisage only one outcome for their struggle, and that is the utter destruction of Israel. If the Jews resist, they will be slaughtered. Fatah are a bit more moderate, but their anti-Semitism and hatred of Israel are profound. They may make peace, but so long as they continue to train their children to be suicide martyrs, the Israelis can't afford to let their guard down. For the moment, the only way forward for peace is the destruction of Hamas. Allow Hamas to continue, to be re-armed by Iran, and finally join forces with Hizbullah, and a war will follow that will make this campaign pale into insignificance. Hizbullah has double the number of long-range missiles it had in 2006, Hamas had just started stockpiling them. The Israelis need peace and work hard for it. Hamas et al just don't give a damn. 

JFox said:



Fri, 2009-01-02 16:23

I would simply like to endorse the rebuttal by Roslyn Ross of this purblind submission by Paul Rogers. As Eduardo Galeano once remarked, Palestinian agression towards Israel is little more than a roar - dangerous no doubt but ultimately impotent - against the insults,  thefts of land,  assassinations, humiliations, and  histrionics of successive Israeli governments who send in the military with orders to kill and then, in tones of innocent outrage, insist that the fault lies with the victim.

opendemocracy said:



Sat, 2009-01-03 21:55

JFox - I don't _think_ rross was objecting to Paul Rogers - surely his comment is only comprehensible as a response to the first comment? Tony

SamsonBlinded.org (not verified) said:



Fri, 2009-01-02 13:12

What are the similarities between the Gaza and West Bank operations? Gaza's was an aerial bombardment, WB is the police work.

rosross said:



Fri, 2009-01-02 05:18

Let me get this right. You can hold a people under occupation for more than half a century and subject them to the worst oppression, abuse and torment and continue to dispossess them and colonise their land and they do not have the right to resist?  You also have the right to inflict collective punishment upon them; to imprison them without charge or trial (10,000 Palestinians thousands of them children); to torture them; to continue to demolish their homes; to continue to take their land and build settlements upon it; to humiliate them  daily at checkpoints which keep them imprisoned; to allow your settlers who have built illegally on Palestinian land to harass and abuse them; to build walls which cut them off from jobs, schools, farmland, family and friends; to deny them food, fuel, access to medical aid; to refuse to accept their democratically elected government;  to deny the media access to them and they have no right to resist? If they do fight back, with whatever basic weaponry they can find, you have the right to unleash the full arsenal of massive military might upon them  for as long as you choose. You can drop bombs into civilian areas, kill families because you want one member dead, murder at will (assassination) and shoot children if they stray into areas you decide are offlimits? 

Now I understand why Israel is the victim and the Palestinians are the aggressors. I was stupidly thinking that the French had the right to resist German occupation and the Brits would have had the right to resist it if the Nazi invasion had succeeded. Clear as mud.

 

It's much easier to cast occupied people as the aggressor (although it takes a crazy way of thinking to do so) than to actually do something to resolve the conflict like end the occupation, end the colonisation, return to UN mandated borders and allow the Palestinians freedom and Statehood.

L E Mitchell (not verified) said:



Mon, 2009-01-05 12:38

I agree with RosRoss' post. Several decades of Israeli occupation cannot be simply and conveniently left out or set aside from analyses of the current situation.

As regards the blaming of victims, the term 'scapegoating' is particularly relevant here - when the Palestinians and particularly the people of Gaza are being blamed for the excessive use of force against them by the Israeli Air Force.

Irbe (not verified) said:



Thu, 2009-01-01 19:57

Rogers' artcle is comprehensive as to the historical facts. But his concluding statement that Israel must seek a "negotiated and fair settlement with the Palestinians" is as futile as the the endless braying for "peace," repeated, by now, a thousand times over the decades by statesmen and -women of various political stripes of many countries. One cannot negotiate with someone who has sworn to kill him; nor can one make peace with such a fanatical enemy. In my opinion, Israel must, regrettably, act with ruthless determination - a determination it lacked in the war in Lebanon and now apparently also lacks in Gaza.

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