Tom Griffin (London, OK): Ordovicius points us to Red Pepper, where Plaid Cymru Assembly Member Leanne Wood argues that English left have failed to respond to the challenges of devolution.
Labour and many of the left parties have argued that Scottish and Welsh nationalism is regressive – a diversion that undermines British working class unity, which should be opposed. They refuse to acknowledge the inevitability of both countries becoming, at some point in the future, independent.
And when we leave the union, what will England then do? The loudest expressions of English national identity have until recently come from the far right. Often confusing Britishness and Englishness, theirs has been an imperialist, exclusive and racist nationalism, one that progressives rightly abhor.
But there are growing signs of progressive voices in England who are seriously addressing the issue of post-devolution English identity.
Nationalism is certainly controversial on the farther left, as witnessed by the differing accounts of Wood's contribution to the Convention of the Left last month from Socialist Unity and the World Socialist Website.
Within the Labour Party, all the signs are that the Brown bounce is also a Britishness bounce, reinvigorating faith in Labour's traditional unionism. While that moment lasts, Wood's message may not be an easy sell.
Comments
If, as Einstein claimed, “nationalism is an infantile sickness”, one of its severest symptoms is the immutable doctrine of inevitability, namely the unshakable conviction that it is only a matter of time before so-called stateless nations such as Wales, Catalonia, Brittany and Salzburg secede, thus bringing about the demise of nation states such as Britain, Spain, France and Austria, within which they currently exist.
Leanne Wood exists to the far left of Lenin, the antithesis of "One Nation Politics", a divisive politician who uses the trappings of Welsh Nationalism to cloak her communist leanings.
Her words may be Infantile, but we should thank her for confirming Plaid Cymru's preferred social and economic model. They wish to turn back the clocks at least to the 1950's.
Insulting people from other parts of the United Kingdom is par for her course, as it is par for the nationalist grass root support who hang on her every word, let me apologise on her behalf to all English people for her crassitude.
Leanne Wood is indeed a stupid woman. One of the characteristics of both Welsh but especially Scottish Nationalism has been its 'exclusive and racist nationalism'. Hate of the English is the link, together with their socialist policies. But then again no one can hate like the Left.
I'd like to know which English nationalists fit this description, quote "Often confusing Britishness and Englishness, theirs has been an imperialist, exclusive and racist nationalism, one that progressives rightly abhor."
Presumably she is referring to that notorious *British* National Party, often falsely accused of being an English party, but which in fact campaigns in Wales to keep the English out! Not unlike Plaid Cymru.
There is not a party with MPs in Westminster that represents the English. Anything with "union" or "united" in its title means that the English are being screwed over to keep it going.
By the way, it is no surprise to any rational person that a "left winger" threw a pie in Phil Woolas's face. The left has never won an argument yet, which is why it resorts to violence as a second resort (the first being abuse) and why the "left" has killed more people than all the other regimes put together.
The worst crime in Britain nowadays is to be in the majority. The majority have no right to express an opinion let alone criticism of any minority. The majority are constantly informed that minorities contribute "disproportionally" to the wealth and culture of Britain. Naturally the brunt of all criticism falls upon the English because they comprise the majority.
I am an English nationalist, even being described as an "ultranationalist". I believe nationalism is the purest form of politics. True nationalism has no designs on other countries, no desire to invade them. Conversely, socialism and communism are expansionist philosophies and inherently undemocratic. Socialists in Germany invaded Poland, France etc. At least these days such people are honest in describing themselves as "International Socialists", the Internazis. Nothing has changed in their behaviour though, they still throw pies and stones, resorting to violence at the earliest opportunity.
Stephen Gash,
having lived in Germany for a long time I must take issue with your assertion that "Socialists in Germany invaded Poland, France etc." and your confusion of extreme right-wing policies with left-wing policies (and ideologies, for that matter). Just because the Nazis called themselves National Socialists, it doesn't make them Socialists. Equating exterminatory racism with socialism is not only unacceptable but also logically untenable. I am appalled and the only explanation I have for no-one commenting on this thus far is that this is exactly the problem with nationalism - no care for what happens or happened in other parts of the world and to other people.
The evidense is irrefutable. Just because you say the Nazis were not socialists does not mean to say that they were not/are not. Calling themselves nationalists does not mean they were nationalists. They were expansionists.
This is exactly the problem with socialism - it tyrannises people then says "it was not socialism, it was the right".
Socialism is just like any other totalitarian system.
There has not been a socialist regime yet that has not tyrannised its population.
I have not met a socialist yet who is not a bully.
I remain to be convinced that the 'Brown bounce' is a 'Britishness bounce', particularly as some of the non-bread-and-butter issues that may be dropped are those belonging to the Governance of Britain agenda - cf. the abandoned Britishness Day idea. In any case, a credible argument can be made - which the SNP has started to do - that the failings of the financial system owe much to New Labour's and Brown's championing of deregulated global financial markets, which was one of the things they used to proclaim as a key reason why the nations of the UK needed to remain part of the Union: for the country to be a big hitter in global markets. And how long will the Brown bounce as such last, in any case? I suppose Glenrothes might provide us with some pointers.
Enoch Powell, whose legacy is highlighted in Sunder Katwala's OurKingdom piece today, might be one example.
One could also cite the English Democrats' flirtation with the far right, which has been ably exposed by Gareth Young.
Britologywatch,
I agree with all your points. We are at a moment of more than usual uncertainty. How the new situation will shape the debate about the future of the UK is something we will be exploring here in depth in the coming days and weeks.
English Democrats have had no "flirtation with the far right"
English Democrats are and have always been the moderate face of English Nationalism.
ENGLISH - Not British & Not EUropean
"I'll be Voting English Democrats on 4 June 2009
Enoch Powell? Would that be the English nationalist who was a Northern Irish MP?
He was British to his marrow.
I don't know about the left engaging with 'nationalisms' or national identity, but in our Cornish Duchy the only true left of centre party that remains is nationalist namely Mebyon Kernow.
To date the government has totally failed to engage with the Cornish identity and very progressive demands for devolution down to the people of Cornwall.
The Cornish Democrat
....and to be frank being ignored by friends in the SNP and Plaid at events such as the Convention of the Left does our cause no good at all.
The Cornish Democrat
I've commented about Gareth Young's comments about the English Democrats elsewhere on the net.
Any contact with "far right" groups were made as the party started up and no further collaboration was made once their stance on matters had been determined as conflicting with the EDP's policies.
Any mergers have been openly declared in press releases.
Gareth states he was a Labour councillor, a party which has Cabinet members and former ministers who were member of the communist party. Communists are historically murderous oppressors, so I don't think membership of the Labour Party is much to crow about.
However, it is what the English democrats' policies are that matter, which have led to them being labelled as liberal wets by the "far right". These comments may be read on relevant websites.
The actuality is that the "far right" detest the English democrats every bit as much as Gareth Young appears to do, and certainly every bit as much as I do every party with MPs at Westminster. In my honest opinion, most of the English MPs are nothing better than traitors to their constituents and the Scottish ones should have no say on English matters at all. England needs a First Minister and its own executive, but Westminster MPs consider England and the UK to be mutually exclusive, so England must go.
To hell with that notion.
When a senior member of the party constantly posts on political forums about how great an alliance between the EDP and other English groups with "far right" policies would be, it's not surprising people are concerned and that includes those that may support the party and its policies. If the EDP has no links to such parties and has no intention of doing so then it means the party gets crap for stuff it's not doing but the fact that the 'link' is there isn't simply down to liberal wetness.
Sarah 2
You have no logic to your argument.
Plaid Cymru are in alliance with the British Labour party to govern Wales, this does not mean that Plaid Cymru share the same values as the British Labour party.
Granted the English Democrats will not deliberately stand against any other English Nationalist party.
This is simply a pragmatice recognition of the fact that even though the English Democrats is the biggest Nationalist Party, we are still tiny compared to the main stream parties.
In order to suceed in our cause then as many people as possible need to be sticking English Leaflets through doors, up and down England.
We English Democrats, welcome all people to join our party, we need as many people as possible, and as many votes as possible.
Our own message remains, exactly as determined by our own English Democrats manifesto.
The English Democrats naturally communicates with all English Nationalists and a constant attempt to make the English Political movement as big as possible, and indeed has in the past communicated with various other poltical parties including
Veritas
Liberal Party
Senior Citizens Party
New Party
UK Reform
Countryside Party.
Such discussions have already led to the UK Reform party and the New England Party, merging into the English Democrats.
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The motives of those wish to damage the English Democrats good name, has to be questioned, it can only be assumed that the intention is hostile to the concept of English Nationalism.
Pat practised flim-flam answers and trying to equate black with pink doesn't impress people when its spouted by politicians why do you think it's going when it comes from you?
Which if that party is openly racist makes claims of EDP non-racism look paper thin and provides succour for those who like to claim English nationalist = racist.
You're quite capable of damaging your own good name. Promoting the idea of alliances with parties like England First does it for you. It's already bitten the party in the rear with the Matt O'Connor debacle. Much as you may like to pretend otherwise the EDP are the not the sole representatives of English Nationalism. Criticism of the EDP is not automatically equal to hostility towards English Nationalism, indeed critics of the EDP's cosying up to groups like England First may do so because they think it gives English Nationalism a bad name and has a negative effect on their cause. Criticism of the EDP does not automatically even equal hostility to the party. Members of the party have questioned the wisdom of this.
Keep off the wacky baccy Steve, I've never been a Labour councillor and have never stated anything of the sort. I could hardly serve a party that I've never voted for and never will.
I read a lengthy article on your blog, and wrongly attributed to you. On looking again it would appear to be one by Mike Knowles. My mistake.
At least we have one thing in common Gareth :-D
@Cornish Democrat. Alex Salmond used to make regular excursions to Cornwall to talk about so-called Cornish autonomy. He has backed off lately maybe because it was made clear that the next time he was so inclined there would be similar stirring in the Shetlands by English nationalists.
There is a significant number of Shetlanders who don't altogether agree with Scottish independence and are not especially enarmoured with the idea of being ruled from Holyrood.
The English Democrats used to have a policy of autonomy for Cornwall but that has now been dropped I believe.
'and when we leave the Union, what will England then do?'...
Oooooh, I don't know - maybe we'll have a huge street party on the M1 to celebrate our independent status? (I'll make the jellies!)
The only people who confuse Britishness with Englishness are those within the UK London based Establishment. They do it relentlessly and deceptively in order to fog the issue. It's smoke and mirrors in a mushroom garden the size of England.
That's why Britishness lessons will be taught only in English schools, that's why news reports on the BBC are fogged - they give the impression that a health or education issue applies to the whole of the UK - when in fact it only applies to England. That's why Gordon Brown is allowed to proclaim that nuclear power stations will be built 'throughout the country' - when he knows, the media knows and the Welsh & Scots know that the only country this is actually going to happen will be in England. Ditto, runways, ditto, nuclear waste dumps, ditto the plans to build 3 million new houses in the next 15 years. Unfortunately, the great majority of the English public don't know as they are victims of a campaign of disinformation.
We are not even allowed to celebrate our English culture. We are regularly told by ever so clever people that England has no culture. They will not give us a national day, they will not let us have our own national anthem for God's sake! The FA, RFL, RFU etc are all complicit in the great snake and mirrors deception by insisting that God Save the Queen is played before each and every match.. And then, in a recent speech on how fab it is to be British, Gordon Brown is allowed to get away with proclaiming that the Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights were entirely British achievements - they weren't, they were 100% English.
Leanne Wood is allowed to fall back on the usual suspects - England has, apparently had an imperial past and to be an English nationalist is to obviously be a right wing thug..
She herself confuses Britain and England regarding the imperial past - last time I looked, it was called the British Empire. (the clue is in the name, folks!)..
And then, finally, when some of us don our tin hats and pop our heads over the paraphet to proclaim that we are English nationalists, we are routinely condemned as right wing nutters and 'little Englanders' - without having a clue where the phrase originated from.
A look in the dictionary states - 'an Englishman opposed to the territorial expansion of the British Empire. see 'Anti-imperial'...
(Little Englanders were a group of English people, from England who railed against the expansionist tendencies of the Brutish state - when the British Empire was 'getting into its stride'. Little Englanders favoured keeping their own council and minding their own business rather than shoving their noses into other countries in the far off reaches of the globe. Little Englanders were stay at homers). Hardly a basis for sneering invective then? But why let historical facts get in the way of a chance to rubbish 'dangerous' English nationalism?
As a footnote, do you think those little Englanders would have been in favour of our recent adventure in Iraq?
I guess not.
The only people following a 'racist nationalism' are our British government leaders. They are content to let English people to die or go blind for the want of expensive drugs deemed too expensive not effective enough to be wasted on 50 million English people - but are freely available, for free to 5 million Scots. Or think it's perfectly OK to charge English sick over 7 quid and rising per prescription when everyone else in the UK will get theirs free, nix and for nothing in 2 years time. Or think it's somehow educationally smart to see a system where English students, are uniquely penalised through the imposition of top up fees - helpfully voted through by the poodle claque of Scottish Labour MPs. Or think it makes economical sense to make English old and sick be forced to sell their houses to finance their residential care when in Scotland, the Scottish government picks up the tab.
And Tom, if there is any far right racist parties operating in this country it is Labour, the Tories and the Lib Dems - all content to watch the situation continue - their MPs too busy troughing out on expense excesses to be bothered about their constituents being institutionally discriminated against..
After a 30 year voting commitment to Labour - I woke up and joined the English Democrats some 5 years ago. They rather uniquely in our current political climate want EQUALITY. Hardly a far right ethos, is it?
Message to Ms Wood, this English left winger has responded to the challenges of devolution by realising that Labour are institutionally racist and so decided to do something about it by joining a party that is fighting for my democratic rights. This English left winger is now on the English Democrats National Council.
I have had enough of those that should know better telling me that English nationalism was, is a far right creation - it's not. It is a perfectly reasonable proposition for a country of 50 million souls who wish to have their own identity. That right of self determination is enshrined in the United Nations human rights charter - an issue so important the Brutish state will travel half way round the world to impose their vision of democracy upon a nation whether they want it or not - but routinely fail to address our grievances.
It is the people who seek to deny us that human right who are the true racists, the true supremicists, the true enemies of democracy. They know who they are.
Steve do you make it up as you go along? I doubt Alex Salmond even laid eyes on the e-mailed threats a couple of marginals sent him.
But anyway you seem to be under the illusion that the Duchy of Cornwall is part of England.
Read and learn: http://duchyofcornwall.eu/
The Cornish Democrat
"...you seem to be under the illusion that the Duchy of Cornwall is part of England."
That's because it IS in England today ... what happens in the future is a different matter.
I've seen the website you've quote. It gives a comprehensive, albeit slanted and biased, history of the Duchy.
The reason no one pays attention to Cornwall or will give it the time of day is the language used is clearly false. For example, there is a page with the header "Suppression of Conish Identity". As a casual reader, violent images like Rwanda, Bosnia, Kosovo, or East Timor enter my mind. Most people, when they think of Cornwall, they think of their holidays. And unless you have real, concrete evidence that today Cornish people are being beaten, harassed, are actively discriminated (e.g., signs that read "Cornishmen need not apply"), etc., you and your ilk are going to have a hard time making the case (in Britain or the EU).
The first time I saw such pages (and there aren't a lot of them; and those that exist are from a small coterie of partitionist), I thought "where did this come from?"
I am not against an assembly or partition for Cornwall. But my point is that unless the debate is skewed toward the needs (economic) of those in Cornwall and the Southwest, it's going to be tough.
By the way, I've always wondered if Cornish identity really end at the Tamar? I would imagine that it would extend far beyond to the surrounding communities and vice versa. Border areas -- regardless of where one goes -- are hardly monocultural. They tend to be a blend of two. For example, in the north of Cornwall, I would expect to see an amalgamation of English and Cornish; the culture would become more Cornish as you travel farther south, no?
It's the left that all too often act as if English = British, because they are unwilling to recognise Englishness.
It's the left who more that anyone else push the idea that if you're black etc you can't be English. It would have been laughable if it weren't so offensive, reading lefty commentators after the channel 4 100% English programme, that sought to portray the English as racist by deliberately picking people with or who could be seen as having racially exclusive ideas of Englishness, going on about how the show had showed up the 'racists'. You just knew that the ones crowing over the how ridiculous the 'racists' had been shown up to be are the same kind of people that never actively promote the idea that you could be Black and English, Asian and English etc, would go around saying that Englishness was exclusive and shouldn't be promoted and shouldn't be celebrated because it might offend instead we should all be British and would probably harange someone like Ian Wright about how he could possibly feel English.
The English would be wise to leave the Left alone. The social policies and entitlement being expanded in Scotland and Wales are sooooo expensive! It just boggles the mind how much they cost now and in the future.
Everyone wants free medicine, no parking fees, tuition-free university, etc. And I can understand why people in England look north and west and ask "what about us?"
But we've been here before, haven't we? Wasn't the NHS at its genesis free of charge (well, not totally free; it was paid by the public purse)? But due to demographic, economic, and societal changes, this model became unsustainable and was abandoned.
Plaid and the SNP are championing well-meaning policies, but I don't think they've given much thought to how their policies will play out in the future. For instance, the SNP is banking on oil revenue post independence. But is it wise to plan with money one doesn't have yet? And if they are planning for independence, wouldn't it be wiser to cut back on spending and save as much money as possible in case things just don't work out?
The Left norht and west seem to forget that their nirvana is funded by the UK government. But once the Union dissolves (that's a big IF), it will no longer be the 4 home countries funding the social policies; it will be individual countries.
My advice to Plaid and the SNP is to prepare for the biggest budget hole ever seen!
Manxunionist,
Cornwall has been almost totally absorbed into England in an administrative (de facto) sense. In a consitutional legal sense (de jure) however Cornwall is united to and part of the Duchy of Cornwall, and, as I'm sure you are aware the Duchy exists outside the law. The Duchy of Cornwall is a UK Crown dependency operating outside of the laws of England and Wales. This is evidenced by over 150 Acts of Parliament, many of which acknowledge that the duchy is exempt from the laws that govern England and Wales.
For example, the duchy is exempt from the provisions of the Town and County Planning Act 1990. Therefore the planning laws of England and Wales do not apply to the duchy. This was evidenced in 2002 when Kerrier District Council objected to duchy plans to commence development on one of its properties. The Head of State of the Duchy of Cornwall informed the UK government of dissent – and the government duly overruled the powerless council.
As for your question about Cornish identity. Of course identity is very fluid and trying to pin it down impossible but what do you mean exactly? Some people born in Devonshire England think of themselves as Cornish?
The Cornish Democrat
After Leanne Wood's admitedly provocative article on the future of the nations of the British Isles and the importance of a strong left wing English nationalism, I was hoping that the more intellectual amongst you may try to grasp the importance of this debate.
Instead, you have reverted to the usual nashie bashing and anti-Welsh/Scottish comments. Having said that, the earlier experiences of Welsh and Scottish nationalism were based far too much on being anti-English; a largely futile argument to hide the lack of confidence in our own potential. All aspiring nation states have to go through this phase, before realising that to define themselves in a constructive and internationalist manner, they have to drop the blame game and do things for themselves. I'm proud to say that both the SNP and Plaid are now doing this and consequently gaining support from all sections of their electorate.
I only hope that the English nation get to this stage sooner rather than later and do so with a strong and outward looking left wing nationalist/internationalist voice.
Remember that the definition you use to define me as a Welsh nationalist, defines you as UK nationalists. I also happen to be a proud trade unionist, de-centralist socialist, active anti-fascist and internationalist.
Plaid is a fun place to be!
I'm an English nationalist, but I don't think of myself as left or right. The current debate amongst left-wing progressives over the identity issue seems to me to be more about positioning themselves to take adavantage of nationalism, or possibly to prevent the right from monopolising the issue.
Frankly I'm cautious of motives, and I'm no more inclined to cooperative with the hard-left than I am with the hard-right.
What England needs is a strong and outward looking English nationalist/internationalist voice.
Toque you say
"What England needs is a strong and outward looking English nationalist/internationalist voice."
On the basis that you don't feel that your vision is currently in existance.
Can I suggest that you create such an organisation ?
Maybe once it is successfully launched, then we will all be able to join and support you.
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The reality is that if you start to do something, then some people will "attack" you, even though you thought they were on your side.
Strange
It's not about organisations Steve, it's about philosophy and political attitides.
It's not about "sides" - nationalism for nationalism's sake. Where you go so obviously wrong is in trying to categroise people or groups as either for or against you; one reason why you find criticism from me impossible to comprehend.
The fact that you are an English nationalist does not make me tolerate you anymore than someone who is not an English nationalist, an attitude that if adopted by you would lead to a lot less criticism from me.
The level of some of this debate is more than a little disappointing. The English left do need to wake up to the progressive forces supporting independence in Wales and Scotland.
It is so sad to see so many on the English left refuse to recognise their own prejudices. Many of them forcibly argue for recognition of small states such as Palestine and Ireland, yet are vociferously hostile to the notion that Wales and Scotland should be independent.
Many should heed the words of Lenin (and Trotsky).
"The right of nations to self-determination implies exclusively the right to independence in the political sense, the right to free political separation from the oppressor nation.... The proletariat demands a democracy that rules out the forcible retention of any one of the nations within the bounds of the state." [Lenin, National Liberation]
How many Labour politicians, when making desperate attempts to portray themselves as genuine socialists, acknowledge this aspect of socialist heritage? Answer: None.
For more, read this article
Although not defining myself as British in terms of how I feel, I very much respect all who do so, including family and friends. However, now that devolution has at long last allowed the nations of the UK to legitimately express their nationalist feelings, the definition of Britishness is not threatened by the Celts but the English.
England has and always will be the most significant constituent part of the British state and with 85% of the population and an amazing history, quite rightly so.
This is where the problem lies with being British as so many English still consider English and British to be one and the same (although less so now). Until the English nation re-defines itself to the world as separate from being British, then the Brit label will mean less and less to all the elements currently formulating the UK.
So it's down to English. If you believe in a strong future for the UK, you have to come out of the closet, hopefully with a progressive and internationalist outlook..
I cannot comment on the situation in Wales but would Owly please produce the information which shows that the SNP is exclusivist, racist or motivated by hatred of the English?
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