openDemocracy: In an article in openDemocracy, Delia Grigore has given a bleak assessment of the condition of Roma in central Europe, including Romania, today. How would you describe their situation?
Florin Botonogu: The Roma are somewhere between the past and the future. You cant look at Roma communities separately from Romanian society in general, which is still going through the transition from communism to a democratic system. Its a very difficult process, and the economy is not doing so well, so the whole population is suffering.
Where do you place the Gypsy against this background? One important factor is that in the communist period the underpinning ideology was that everybody should be equal. So the Gypsies faced, not politics of integration, but politics of assimilation. Moreover, there were fewer economic difficulties. Under communism everybody had a basic standard of living. From this point of view, things were better for the Roma and also for Romanians.
But when communism fell and we started to build a democracy, we found that Roma were not so educated. So when they started to lay off workers, Roma were the first ones to be laid off.
A change in mentalities
openDemocracy: Are there different Roma communities in Romania?
Florin Botonogu: There are linguistic differences. There are Roma who dont know the Romany language at all; they know only Romanian or Hungarian. There are also different Romany dialects, and it is possible that if I meet what the French call Kalderasi or Kalderar, I would only understand 10% of what they were saying. Its a big difference, but lets say that I get along; and when I go to some other Balkan countries I can understand some of the Roma there.
There is also a difference in the way people dress. Generally speaking the traditional communities have kept their historical dress as well as language. There are some rules that you have to obey. There are other communities that are not so traditional, who live like any other citizens in Romania, and there are some in-between.
openDemocracy: What can be done about the fact that Roma communities are especially hard hit by unemployment?
Florin Botonogu: In my opinion this experience should be addressed within the general employment framework. The people who have to implement this are the local authorities, so I strongly believe that this problem is not going to be solved with central government programmes as in the communist period. In every city you need to discover the local resources for solving this problem.
openDemocracy: What do you do to build these relationships?
Florin Botonogu: This is what Im trying to say: there should be a change both in Romanian and in Roma mentality. Its not only about the man from Bucharest who comes to you and tells you what to do. You yourself should do things! I live and work in Bucharest, and my organisation cannot know exactly what resources are there in every Romanian city.
openDemocracy: What can be done about police violence?
Florin Botonogu: It is not a problem that cannot be solved. The way to do it is by dialogue whether youre a Roma representative or a mayor who realises that the police doesnt treat the Roma well. In that case, I can go and talk to the mayor, and the mayor can talk to the police, and Im sure the police will treat the Roma differently. That really happened in a project we did in Botosani. Not all policemen are racist.
No papers? No house
openDemocracy: Why did housing become such a big problem for the Roma?
Florin Botonogu: Romanian citizens did not own their houses under communism. After the revolutionary change of 1989-90, the state gave Romanian citizens the opportunity to buy their houses at a symbolic price. But the political dimension was that Roma were driven away from the city centres, where often they had lived before. The local governments would give them different housing in exchange, because the centre was considered to be of special historical value, or because it was a sought-after location for the most powerful citizens.
openDemocracy: How could they be driven out so easily?
Florin Botonogu: Because they did not own the house, they did not have identification documents, and they did not have title-deeds for the house or the land. This was for various reasons. During communism they were just allowed to settle as a compromise. The local authorities told them they could build a house, but they never got papers on it.
They were not very interested in getting those papers either. They told themselves, The police say you can stay here, so everything will be fine. In the countryside Roma do not have the same problem, because if you didnt have papers on your house but you were registered in an agricultural cooperative, which could help you with the paperwork.
It is an important problem, but it particularly affects the traditional Roma communities. They used to travel and they didnt care about one place or another, and suddenly they settled down.
There are related problems. As with other European traditional societies, Roma like to live in an extended family. The problem is that they dont have enough space for doing this, so the Romanian authorities have moved them into different buildings.
A different reality
openDemocracy: Is there a cultural and educational aspect to the condition of Roma people in Romania? What kind of presence do they have in the media, for example?
Florin Botonogu: On the most important TV stations in Romania we have a very good advertisement, artfully made, whose message is to ask people to donate money to Roma. Also, last autumn we organised a Roma theatre, performing a famous play by a Romanian playwright in established theatres. It was a success, with very good reviews.
openDemocracy: Do you think such initiatives can contribute to overcoming tensions between non-Roma and Roma?
Florin Botonogu: The purpose is less aimed at overcoming tensions than about creating a better image of the Roma, and destroying some prejudice on the majoritys part. To put it like it is: the majority says that Roma are thieves, Roma are not working. We cannot deny that this is a part of the reality, but there is another part of the Roma doing theatre, music, and social work!
Bridging the political gap
openDemocracy: I would like to talk also about civic activism in general, because on your website I found the term civic militancy, and I wonder what you mean by that? Is this similar to the approach of some NGO: in western Europe that are quite militant in their actions, like Greenpeace?
Florin Botonogu: My organisation, Romani CRISS, has been trying for several years to fill this gap between the central authorities, central politics, and local politics. I see this as our major role. Most of the ex-communist countries have strategies for Roma, or at least are working on them. This may be seen as a political act to please the European Union or some other international institutions.
Once we have a strategy in Romania we must see how it is implemented, what works and what doesnt, and what we can do to improve the situation; this is how I see the activism.
For example, in our projects with health mediators we are trying to give best practice examples of how one can do things. They help local and national health institutions to work in the Roma communities. Local institutions often do not know or fear to approach Roma, especially the traditional Roma communities; and the traditional Roma do not know how to approach the public institutions. Going a little bit further, the projects try to raise awareness in the Roma population about the importance of health issues, starting from washing ones hands.
openDemocracy: Are there also specific communication problems? Quite often I read about certain cultural taboos in Roma communities.
Florin Botonogu: Perhaps the most extended taboo is the one related to contraception. In traditional Roma communities you do not talk about sex, so this job has to be done very carefully and step-by-step. But I think it will be a success. Traditional Roma communities have special rules, but they also live in Romanian society. They are aware of whats happening around them. They have TV and are exposed to all the modern media.
openDemocracy: So people know about problems of sexual health but they dont talk about it in their family?
Florin Botonogu: Yes. The health mediator goes into the community with the doctor, and the doctor explains how it works. And let me say that contraception isnt only a problem of the Roma community. If I may tell you a little joke, there was a project in a Romanian village trying to give women the contraception pills they needed, and they presented all the information and gave every woman their pills, but in the end the project was not so successful. Why? Because when their pills were finished, they just borrowed one from the neighbour. Its just a joke, but its real.
An activism of reality
openDemocracy: Your website talks about the concept of Roma as a European minority, and says that the nation-states and the European institutions have a special responsibility towards that European minority. On a political level, do you think there should be a special representative of European Roma as an acknowledged European minority with the European Commission and the European Parliament and other European institutions?
Florin Botonogu: The Roma are a specific ethnic group with specific needs, and there should be a specific approach. That is the heart of the matter. About politics, there have been some discussions some actions in this respect, but to be honest with you Im not very interested in or well-informed about this political stuff, so I think Ill just stop here. I have limited time, and in this limited time I prefer to do my job, and I prefer to do it as well as I can.
