
Alex Sakalis (AS): When the Gezi Park protests started in Istanbul a lot
of solidarity movements sprung up in Greece – in Athens, Thessaloniki
etc. It was unusual to see such a thing in Greece - there were these
banners that said, “Let’s not divide based on meaningless ethnic and
religious characteristics, let’s unite based on class solidarity” and
people saying “I stand with Turkey”. Were there any similar Gezi
solidarity movements in Armenia?
Babken Der-Grigorian (Babken):
There were few, if any, solidarity actions but there was solidarity among the
activists. When Gezi Park happened in 2013 it reflected something that
had happened in Armenia a year prior. In 2011 and 2012 there was a much
smaller park in Armenia they had wanted to turn it into shopping or
boutiques. And activists had spent 96 days sitting in, blocking trucks,
and resisting police in the snow.
Buket Turkmen (Buket): This was limited to one city?
Babken:
Yes. The struggle in Mashtots Park was one of the first victories of our social
movements in Yerevan, and to this day holds a very important, symbolic meaning among activists. So when Gezi Park happened, there was that
sort of understanding. Everyone was like, "Oh, it’s just like Mashtots
Park." And there's that sort of understanding that, "Well of course they
would do what they’re doing because we did what we did and we won."
Buket: Maybe
the difference of Gezi Park was that it spread to a national scale. We didn’t
expect this. It began with an occupation of a park, but afterwards it became something
else. Activists from different ideologies united in Gezi Park and it
became a movement against the government. And when it spread to other cities
and regions of Turkey, it changed its character in these cities; in some cities
it became a very nationalist resistence for instance. So there was a risk in
Gezi Park - and I don’t know whether you had this risk in Yerevan – there was
this risk of it becoming this nationalist, Kemalist resistance. That’s why there
were lots of people with flags and Ataturk posters. And Kurdish people were
reacting against this.
Babken: Well this is the dichotomy that always already exists
in society. The risk exists that it’ll just fall into the
polarisation of, ‘well if you’re against the government you must be a
Kemalist.’
And that did exist in Armenia in that, when something anti-government happens there are attempts by the old, now-discredited opposition or the ultra-nationalist elements, of trying to co-opt it. What was really beautiful in the Electric Yerevan movement was that people took on this symbolism of traditional Armenian music and heritage in a non-ultra-nationalistic way. The national anthem was sung in the mornings, where the line “I did not sleep at nights” was sung extra loud, in a way emphasizing the commonality of activists on the street and the struggles from a romantic past. Traditional patriotic songs were sung at night with people passing around photocopies of lyrics to songs like “Sardarabad”. And this was done without turning ultra-nationalist. In a way it took that away from them so that those elements were no longer ultra nationalist.
Buket: Do you think it
can still be transformed into an ultra-nationalist movement? Could an
ultra-nationalist group arise from this movement? Because what happened
in our experience in Gezi Park was that there are still some forums
meeting in parks in Istanbul and they are ultra-nationalist groups. In some forums, people are Kemalist and bourgeois and they are supporting the army. They want
the army to intervene and to block Islamism.
Babken: In
Armenia I think there is a similar tendency but it manifests itself
differently. There is a pro-army element but it’s also pro-government. So in
Armenia it’s not so much about not wanting democracy because we’ll get
something else. It’s more about not questioning the government because we are at
war with Azerbaijan. Calls for greater democracy are framed as somehow
undermining national security by these voices, which is just absurd.
Buket: In Turkey these new nationalist-kemalists divide the leftists. They created their own party, which has a heritage in left wing nationalist, Kemalist tradition. They then participated in the elections and right now they have 3% of the votes in Turkey. If this 3% per cent were going to the Republican Party or the pro-Kurdish Party the parliament would be something else.
Babken: I
think in Armenia it’s actually a good development that you’re seeing more
traditional patriotic music being dispersed in the protests because the
government and the ultra-nationalist elements try to keep that as their domain.
So if you identify as Armenian and you feel proud of these symbols, then in the
past the only structures that would be accepting of you would be the pro-government
or the nationalist elements. In the past, activism was very much a rejection of
that and there was a more cosmopolitan understanding. And there is still plenty
of that in activist circles, but I think it’s important to meet society where it’s
at. Unfortunately Armenian society is very conservative, but by dispersing
these nationalist and traditional elements throughout the movement, it only
serves to strengthen the movement and remove the monopoly on symbolism that
pro-government and nationalist elements would have. As soon as they no longer
hold that monopoly on Armenian identity, half the battle is lost for them.
AS: So you’re seeing lots of Armenian flags at the Electric Yerevan protests?
Babken: Yes, Armenian flags and traditional Armenian instruments and music.
Buket: This was the same in the Turkish Gezi Park movement as well.
Babken: And
unlike the other movements, such as the Mashtots Park movement and the
transport movement that were successful, those movements didn’t have so much of
that. Whereas Electric Yerevan did incorporate the traditional elements. I
actually tweeted about this saying I can’t tell if I am at a protest or an
Armenian wedding. Because people were doing circle dances, with music from live
traditional instruments, etc.
Buket: But all of these kinds of resistances have these repertoires of action.
Babken: Yeah,
I know and I think it's a positive thing, at least in the Armenian context.
It’s really important for movements to meet society where it’s at, and if that
means patriotic songs and national flags, so be it.
Buket:
Yes, it's a positive part of it for sure. If we have a chance to
interview each other here, I have some questions about the Armenian
resistance. Frst of all I am wondering why we haven’t given support to
your [Electric Yerevan] resistance as much as we could? Because there is
support on Twitter, Facebook and social media and people are posting
things about the resistance.
But in the streets we are concerned
with something else right now. We have the risk of war on our border
with Syria. Our government tries to intervene and after the elections
and after the success of the pro-Kurdish party [HDP] they are rejecting
the peace process with the Kurdish population. This is something that is
a burning issue in Turkish society these days, so we have lost our
concentration on Armenia and we don’t give as much support to this
resistance as we could.
Second, I have some questions regarding
the gendered character of the various resistances. For instance, in the
case of Gezi, women were dominating the organisation of the park and
commune, why is that? Because for women, the urban transformation and
the gentrification of urban zones, is limiting their freedom.
Especially
working class women, for them the centre of Istanbul, Taksim Square, is
a liberal place where they can walk easily. Where they can go to bars
and cafes and this is a freedom zone for women. So when you try to
deconstruct this space and renovate the square by telling public
transportation to go underground and making bus stops underground,
people, especially women can’t take buses at night because they are
afraid of going underground because of the risk of harassment.
There
are other things like that. So
women were intervening in the resistance and consequently, they changed the
repertoires of action. They tried to transform the language used in the slogans
because the slogans used in these resistances are always machoist. So they say,
“Fuck off police”. But what does it mean, “fuck off police”? So the women said,
“You cannot use this slogan because we are here too.” Or some of the men would
shout “Faggot police!” And there was a meeting during Gezi, where the
supporters of Besiktas Football team came - and they were the heroes of the Gezi
movement - and they came with their slogans. They were shouting, “Faggot
police!” Then a single, young man shouted, “Maybe we are faggots, but get
used to it! We are everywhere!” What he meant by that was that they, LGBT
people, were also in the resistance and it’s not respectful to shout those
kinds of slogans.
Babken:
The same thing happened during the Mashtots Park protest too. Actually
Mashtots Park in Armenia saw this change of culture. There you had
nationalists and LGBT and progressive cosmopolitans.
Buket: And
women? I am wondering about women? Because I know that in Armenian
culture as well, the situation for women is not too good.
Babken: That’s
true, and where there is a problem in society as a whole, you’ll tend to see
those same problems within a movement as well. The role of women is a clear
example of that. But I think these kinds of spaces, such as a movement or
square occupation, become an opportunity to start challenge these things.
Because in the traditional structures that exist it is harder to challenge
them.
Of course, you can challenge them on an individual level, but in progressive
movement spaces you can start challenging them more collectively by trying to
build a movement that prefigures a new value structure. Especially in the early
days of Electric Yerevan, you had women anarchists on the front lines. But then
we noticed that little by little they were blending into the crowds and the
gendered aspect became a real issue, especially in the organizing and decision-making.
It’s a little disappointing to say, but it was sort of a regression from past movements
where the role of women had been more prominent.
Buket: Do you think there will be a social transformation of gender relationships?
Babken: I
think there already is. Because these are the spaces where they can emerge. At
one point in Baghramian Avenue we heard of stories of morality police going
around and telling people, “why is your hair this colour?” Or telling women,
“Hey, you need to be home right now.” They tried to do that and people got so
angry with them! So it broke that entire thing. At one point I witnessed this
guy go up to one of my friends, who is one of the organisers.
And speaking with a lot of respect, this guy
said, “Hey I am so and so, I really respect you and the movement but I want to
ask you one thing? What is this?” By that I mean he used a very profane word to
refer to a feminist pamphlet. And my friend the organiser got angry and started
to go off on him. Then the people around the organiser, especially women,
started to go off on him and they said, “Well, if you think that the pamphlet
is that [the profane word] then this is not your space and you need to get
out!”
Buket: So they protected the feminists?
Babken:
Yes, and I think these spaces in Armenia are one of the biggest hopes
for being able to challenge and to break down the conservative
relationships. So even if nothing else positive comes out of these
things, at least these spaces rupture the conservative mentality.
Buket:
The individual experiences are very, very important in these
resistances. For example, for me, the Gezi resistance is the period of
my life when I felt safe in Istanbul even at 5 o’clock in the morning. I
was in the streets and resisters were everywhere so of course there
were harassments, but for instance when you are in the street at 5
o’clock in the morning and you are alone in an empty street and there
are some men coming towards you, this is something that is frightening.
But I was not afraid any more when I was seeing these men in the street
with these bags coming toward me. These bags are now a symbol of all
resistances globally, because you need something to carry your mask in
and your helmet because you are a resister. So when I was seeing these
men coming towards me carrying those bags I knew I was safe and that
they would protect me against everything.

AS: When I think of the Gezi protests the defining image for me is unfortunately the image of the girl in the red dress getting hit with the water cannon which went viral worldwide and it's a symbolic image, for better or for worse.Buket: She is very disturbed by this - she does not feel at all easy about it. When I wanted to interview her, she refused and said, "I was only one of the people and I don’t want to be famous because of a violent photo." She feels quite stigmatized by it.I think that women really emerged for the first time during these resistances. It is not like the Marxist-Leninist resistances in the 1970s because at that time they were trying to hide their femininity, but now they try to resist using their femininity. And this is probably the impact of radical feminism. That is why putting on red lipstick is a form of resistance and this is part of the new repertories of action of feminist struggle that we were talking about.Babken: One thing you did mention that I want to go back to and that is why there isn’t as much solidarity between the movements in Turkey and Armenia. But I think a beautiful story that really needs to be highlighted is that actually Gezi Park was the place of an Armenian cemetery. I was recently in Istanbul for the Armenian Genocide commemoration and we went to the Armenian cemetery. I didn’t know this but during Gezi Park they had discovered Armenian tombstones and the protestors had cleaned them, protected them and taken them to the Armenian cemetery so that they could be secure. So they are now on display in the Armenian cemetery. And when I first heard about that I thought, “How great, those tombstones could have been broken or just ignored.” It was a reflection of the values of Gezi Park.Buket: No, no. Because Nor Zartonk [New Awakening] which is the Armenian youth, left-wing association and a very recent one, they were there in Gezi Park. And they were one of the main actors in Gezi. They had a tent and when you were entering the commune the first thing you saw was Nor Zartonk.AS: Did the global media covered the protests in Yerevan in the same way – by trying to find the defining image?Babken: They have definitely covered it more than any other protest in Armenia in the past. And actually during the panel they were talking about how Twitter is slacktivism or whatever. And I’ve always been very sceptical of Twitter and online organizing, but I feel like the hashtag #ElectricYerevan worked to grab the attention of a global audience. So this time it worked. But of course, the biggest reason, I think, for this, was the sensational photos coming from the police repression of activists with the water canons.
Now the thing with the media coverage, we had the Russian media coverage, we had the Western media coverage and the local media coverage. And all three of them had their particular political agendas which were very obvious. The Russian media, from the beginning, demonized it and called it a ‘maidan’ and ‘colour revolution’. It was really insulting to many, especially to those who consider Russia to be a friend and ally.
The local media tried to spin it and in its own way tried to confuse the protestors, discredit the movement and spread misinformation all around. It’s no secret that the mass media landscape in Armenia is controlled by government and semi-governmental interests. So for example, they were spreading a false story that the ‘protestors blocked an ambulance which caused a woman to die’ and this kind of just blatantly wrong information. And then the international media, especially some of the better international media, attempted to touch upon the nuances, but again they wanted to see what was happening in Armenia through a Russian lens.
And some see it as some sort of resistance against Russia. And it’s true there was a Russian element to it, but it wasn’t about Russia, but no one wanted to hear that story. No matter how many times I told people, ‘This isn’t a maidan, this isn’t about Russia’. Everyone wanted to see what was happening in Armenia through an imperialist or colonialist lens. Whether that was from a Western colonial lens or a Russian colonial lens. Either way no one could talk about Armenia, as Armenia, they had to talk about it in relation to Russia or in relation to Europe.
AS: And how was it covered in Turkey, if at all?
Buket:
They speak about it in relation to Gezi Park. They try to translate it,
even in the media; they try to translate it as the latest effect - in
another country - of these resistances. For instance CNN Turk still uses
references to Gezi Park as they try to transmit information about what
is happening in Yerevan. And they say, “You see, they have the same kind
of slogans, the same kind of jokes and humour”. So they argue that this
is the same kind of resistance.
But as I said before,
unfortunately, we have other concerns right now. We were protesting
against the demolition of an Armenian camp in Istanbul a few weeks ago –
Kamp Armen. It was a summer camp, which was used by Armenian children.
They, the children worked as labourers to build the camp, constructed
it. And after the coup d’état they evacuated the camp and they forbid
it. But now, as far as I know, the Government has sold it off to a
private person. So there is this big issue of Kamp Armen and the
Armenian, young people are trying to get back this camp because it
belonged to an Armenian foundation. So we were giving support to this
occupation as non-Armenian citizens of Istanbul. I myself was giving
support to this occupation. Whereas the Yerevan situation was not
something we protested in support of.
Babken: That is okay. The
thing we should be doing better is that there should be better
connection between what is happening in Kamp Armen and what is happening
in Electric Yerevan. And one idea I had is that the Nor Zartonk people
have been to Yerevan and we have been to Istanbul, but if that
connection could be strengthened, that would be a good avenue to
strengthen ties in what is happening in Turkish civil society and what
is happening in Armenian civil society. It could be a really big bridge. Maybe
it’s time for a Nor Zartonk chapter in Yerevan.
AS:
Just to wrap up this discussion. Buket, would you say anything to
Babken about your experiences in Gezi Park and the political changes
that resulted from that in the longer term, which might interest
protestors in Armenia? For example, what about the success of the
pro-Kurdish party, the HDP - and its relationship to Gezi Park?
Buket:
Yes, one of my articles in openDemocracy is on that issue. Because I do
see it as connected to the Gezi Park occupation. And afterwards the
Gezi Park occupation led to greater support among ‘White Turks’ to the
Kobane resistance and HDP’s success is a consequence of these two
resistances. By that, I mean the interaction between the Gezi Park
resistance and the Kobane resistance. White Turks voted for HDP.
As
for what we learned from Gezi Park - this was the danger of the lack of
organisation. I mean of course there are new types of organisations
emerging after Gezi Park such as neighbourhood solidarity forums and
from these forums we can create links to political parties to help
change and transform them from inside. Because the forums were respected
by the HDP, and the forums in turn lent their support to the HDP.
But
we should be more organised. There wasn’t good communication between
neighbourhood solidarity forums that were created after Gezi Park. So we
should have been more organised and in better communication with
each other to create something stronger than this. We could have had a
greater influence on the elections. I mean it’s better than nothing, but
it could have been better than this. The lack of organisation is a big
problem.
AS: And Babken, any concluding thoughts?
Babken: I
agree, it is a big problem. I think in Armenia there is a lack of formal
organisation but there is an abundance of informal organisation. The network of
activists that spearheaded Electric Yerevan are the same group of activists
that have been organising all the protests that have been happening over the
last 4 to 5 years and which have had tangible results. So I am not sure how it
needs to be formalized, perhaps a hybrid movement-party, or multiple new formal
organizations that can compliment and support each other, and change the political
reality in the country.
Buket: I
mean that we need a new language of organization. For instance we had this
focus group discussion with the representatives of new organizations created
soon after Gezi. And they all say that, “We need to find a new form of
organisation and we don’t have it yet’. It doesn’t exist in the world yet and
we are searching for it. A form of organization which would respect the individual
freedom of its members, a non-hierarchical type of organization, avoiding
leadership… All of us agree on the characteristics of the organization needed,
but we don’t really know what to do with these characteristics. The resistences
don’t have their organizations yet, and this fact limits their efficacy.
Babken: I think what is happening in Armenia
and what is happening in Turkey have a lot of parallels. And there are a
lot of issues between Armenia and Turkey that are unresolved and the
people on top are not going to solve them because it’s in their interest
not to solve them.
Buket: Of course.
Babken: The
bridge between progressive and radical elements in Armenian and Turkish societies
needs to be strengthened so that we can solve the issues between Armenia and
Turkey with a progressive agenda, with an agenda based on justice. Otherwise it’s
just not going to happen. I mean it really is up to us to solve these issues. And that is the way to do it, I think.

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